Dangerous psychology- Diving beyond one's training

[DCBC]

I just wanted to mention that training and experience can be a different thing than the level of 'certification' a diver has attained. There are divers without any certification (NAVY Divers) and others with OW certifications that I've done deep-air/mixed-gas Cave/Wreck dives who were competent. On the other hand, I've had Instructors who were totally incompetent to do a drastically more basic dive.

You do not need to complete training from a certified Instructor to make the training worthwhile. I've learned more from non-certified Instructors (and interestingly enough my students) and by just diving to gain experience than from any 'certified Instructor.' There are many ways to learn. The best way (imo) is by doing. Dive with a competent Buddy. Ideally s/he will be patient and experienced. Dive within your safety envelope, progress slowly and thumb a dive when you're uncomfortable. This is not to say anything against taking a course. For many this is a viable option, but it's not the only one...

 

[filutek]

I agree, there is an "adrenaline junkie" effect involved and yes, some people are just plain stupid, but there is also a deeper seated reason: the sport is becoming over-formalized. All kinds of certificates, all kinds of prerequisites, all kinds of rules, half of them pointless, but it is hard for a beginner to figure out which half; complicated, expensive mess - and the whole system ignores simple, basic truth: skills under water do matter, fancy cards - don't.
Over the last 3 years I do most of my diving with my son, currently 15 years old AOW with over 150 dives now; he is very competent for his level of experience: very calm, very fit, great buoyancy, varied dives in his log book; but if I haven't seen it - I would not believe the degree of harassment he gets from some dive shops just because he happens to be young... Cannot go on this dive or that dive, because... you are too young; both easy dives, easier than some dives he already did; this rule comes from the same dive shop that does not teach their OW how to take off, put back on and clear their masks under water! It is quite hard for a young diver to get the right sense of proportion, what is risky, what is not; how to objectively assess skills and plan dives accordingly; arbitrary rules do not help - and it is a vital skill; people who do not possess it take crazy risks and do not even know it.
On one side: everybody and his dog offers dive training, on the other - finding good training for my son was not easy, took a lot of research and some recommendations from friends. For instance: part of OW training is done in swimming pools, cute and easy, but useless; how often divers dive in swimming pools? Just about never, swimming pool diving skills are not very useful... Training is not supposed to be easy, it is supposed to be effective. OK, done - we found a place with a very good instructor, which does everything in real water, worked. AOW - similar problem: buoyancy and navigation is waaaay to rudimentary; we ended up practicing both on our normal dives, then hiring a good instructor for an extra workshops on both topics, just to make sure that I am not teaching my son my own bad habits. With some extras and very good instructors both OW and AOW turned out to be very productive for my son, so - it can be done.
Unfortunately - it is perfectly possible to earn both certificates without actually learning how to dive; but the student is in no position to know it, to him - when the card says 'Advanced' it means exactly that: advanced skill level. Then the same student is presented with a ton of arbitrary rules on resort boats, finds most of them pointless, assumes all (or almost all) rules are pointless - and we have an accident waiting to happen...
Jerzy

---------- Post added December 8th, 2012 at 02:45 PM ----------

This is something worth preventing: why insurance companies decide what we can and cannot do? Government is much less of an issue, you can always dive in jurisdictions that do not harass divers, but all this insurance stuff is... well, optional. Contrary to popular opinion insurance is not "just part of the cost", it is an option one can take or leave.

 

[kelpmustache]

Im new to Diving, New to this forum. Diving is all I want to think about as I am sure many of you have experienced. I recently read this book and it gave great insight into diving history and the philosophies behind extreme diving. It was well written and I often recall the stories of the divers from the book when I am diving.

Have not read shadow divers, but all of my friends have and they always recommend it

The Last Dive: A Father and Son's Fatal Descent into the Ocean's Depths: Bernie Chowdhury: 9780060932596: Amazon.com: Books

 

[Thalassamania]

Sure you can dive 180 feet on air but you will be off your trolley down there. And the dangerous bit is that you probably won't realise how far gone you are. In my experience of guiding dives most people claim "I felt normal down there, wasn't narked at all" but judging by the grins and big doubled handed OK's they gave they were actually on another planet. And how many dives do you need to be an Advanced Diver? Probably rather more than the training agencies suggest. I always encouraged my students to just go diving for a bit rather than try and sign them up straight away for the next course. So appropriate training is actually probably not just doing another little course or two at the local dive centre. But please don't ever take away my right to be an idiot and kill myself.

Let's talk about realities rather than your impression of what reality might be:

1. At 180 feet some people are off their trolley, other are not, and the effect of narcosis will vary from day to day and with conditions, dark and cold being much worse than clear and warm.
2. An experienced deep air diver has a rather full appreciation for, "how far gone" they are and there are days when an experienced deep air diver will decide to thumb the dive rather than continue and take the risk.
3. If you are experiencing divers who claim "I felt normal down there, wasn't narked at all" and who have big grins and display big doubled handed OK's at depth, I'd suggest that you're taking unqualified folks out on "trust me" dives and should stop doing so.
4. I have no idea of what an "advanced diver" is, but it seems cleat that the agencies are applying that term rather prematurely. With respect to depth, in the science community, we have the following minimum experience guidelines: entry level (100 hours of training with 12 dives): 30 feet; 12 additional supervised dives: 60 feet; 12 additional supervised dives: 100 feet; 12 additional supervised dives: 130 feet; 12 additional supervised dives: 150 feet; 12 additional supervised dives: 190 feet. So, a diver who wishes to go to, say, 180 feet will have a minimum of 60 training dives and, even that, will not guarantee the clearance, which requires that they have the experience and demonstrate the ability to perform at depth.
5. You have every right to go to hell in the hand-basket of your choice ... but not when I am responsible for you, nor when the organization that employs me is liable for your actions.

 

[beau2411]

Unfortunately life will always bring persons out that will want to push the limits, and in our lovely sport there is no exceptions. The ideal of training is to better prepare and give informative information and training styles that have been experimented and proven by many military and civil personnel, to make teaching and training as informative and safe as possible.

there is no reason to go out and do unnecessary risks, and adding to the toll of people thru out the years of the sport to make it safer and better for everyone else to enjoy.

they said they planned the dive before hand and that they looked into doing it safer ???, unfortunately the realism of the dive was not thought out as they planned 1 deco stop not the 5 they would have done with formal training. It is in everyone nature to sit on a side of the fence and that will never change, people will ether get the basic training and do the rest on there own, or the other side will get all the training and then some to better understand the effects that will happen while diving.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

However I do not agree with "scaring" beginning OW divers. The instructor should adequately explain nitrogen narcosis and not show pictures of dead divers. For example my problem with nitrogen is time dilation. I don't feel "narced" I just don't realize time is passing. That can be a problem at 170'.

That can be a problem at any depth ... it's how people run out of air.

Oxygen toxicity should be discussed in more detail as well.

Oxygen toxicity is a non-issue for recreational divers who stay within recreational limits.

One of the problems is the "greed" which pervades certain agencies. $$ for each speciality. This causes an artificial limit to training.

Nobody is suggesting you have to take every specialty course that's offered. People usually take those courses because they offer them something they're interested in.

Training should be targeted to fit your specific needs. I tell my students the only course I think they should absolutely take beyond basic OW training is Rescue ... and that's because a well-taught Rescue course is more about keeping yourself out of trouble than it is about helping someone else ... which I see as essential knowledge. Beyond that, classes should only be for the purpose of helping you achieve goals you set for yourself ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[cnar]

Lots of interesting feedback. As I new diver diving for less than a year I'll sum up what I believe to be the reason in one wor which you also identified.

CURIOSITY

---------- Post added December 8th, 2012 at 10:45 PM ----------

That can be a problem at any depth ... it's how people run out of air.


Oxygen toxicity is a non-issue for recreational divers who stay within recreational limits.


... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I'm aware of persons who've gone 200' on air and I have to say that topics like 02 toxicity should be taught on OW for the safety of all. I personally was aware of the danger at depth of 02 before I started diving and that has made me very aware of staying within rec limits when breathing air.

The issue however is that we are getting persons involve in this sport and then setting limitations on what they can do without any real explanation or understanding. If I tried that with my daughter I'm certain as soon as my back was turned that she'd be doing what I said not to do. Humans are curious by nature and we need to explain the logic behind rec limits similar to what is done with nitrox. Every type of gas divers breathe has a max operating depth at which point it can become fatal. If we satisfy basic curiosities persons will seek training or mentors prior to engaging in activities beyond their level simply because they understand the risk.

Knowledge will allow divers both old and new to make safer choices and better decisions.

 

[SCUBAROY]

I have gone beyond my certificates.... I , pentrate wrecks and caves... I dive in a drysuit ... never had offical training.... buddy just has his openwater...


I also solo dive, but its no different then going surfing or swiming by yourself...


However, From OW to a deep diver with wreck etc, can be done in a few weeks training and probably totalling something like 40 dives. How does is this person any more prepared then me?

If you think nothing is going to happen because you have every qualification then thats worse...

I also rock climb, Mountain Bike, Surf - These are just as dangerous as diving but I never had official training.[/QUOTE]



HAVE YOU REALLY READ WHAT YOU POSTED? RREALLY? You do0n't sound rational. Please post your real name so we can put a name with the post when we see or read of the news article about you demise.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Lots of interesting feedback. As I new diver diving for less than a year I'll sum up what I believe to be the reason in one wor which you also identified.

CURIOSITY

Curiosity is all well and good ... but if you can't invest the time and effort to learn how to satisfy your curiosity safely, then you have no business going there.

I'm aware of persons who've gone 200' on air

I'm aware of those people too. One of them was a friend of mine. He was 26 years old, and considered himself a pretty darn solid diver. They found his body half-buried in the mud at 205 fsw 10 months after he did his final dive. People say nice things like "well, at least he died doing something he loved." I'm pretty certain he wasn't loving his last moments of that dive.

and I have to say that topics like 02 toxicity should be taught on OW for the safety of all. I personally was aware of the danger at depth of 02 before I started diving and that has made me very aware of staying within rec limits when breathing air.

I prefer giving my students more realisitic reasons why they should stay within recreational limits ... like how easy it is to blow through a tank of gas when you're a new diver with a high consumption rate and struggling to do the simple things like maintain decent buoyancy control. Oxygen toxicity is a problem people don't have to worry about until they are experienced enough to be doing dives where they're pushing their PPO2 well beyond what OW divers should be doing. I prefer to focus new diver's attention on the things that will matter to them ... how to dive with a buddy, how to manage buoyancy control, how to pay attention to what's going on around you, how to not run out of air ... the little things that are the difference between having a great time or scaring the crap out of yourself.

I will happily train my divers about the dangers of oxygen toxicity when their diving reaches a level where it can matter. But for the OW diver it's a complete non-issue. If I even suspect that you're the sort of person who's going to push your OW training to the point where oxygen toxicity becomes a concern,we will be having a very serious discussion ... and if it doesn't go the way I think it should, then you'll be in a position to find a different instructor to complete your training.

The issue however is that we are getting persons involve in this sport and then setting limitations on what they can do without any real explanation or understanding.

I disagree. No responsible instructor will tell you to do something without telling you why it matters. And if you don't understand the "why" it's your responsibility to let your instructor know that's the case, so they can find a different way to help you understand. Once you do understand the "why", then it's your choice to either follow your training or not. If the latter, then I don't want you in any further classes with me ... because in this day and age it's a pretty sure bet that if you should exceed your training and end up dead, your surviving family members will sue me.

You ... and only you ... are responsible for the consequences of your choices.

I
If I tried that with my daughter I'm certain as soon as my back was turned that she'd be doing what I said not to do.

... and as a parent, I would fully expect you to hold her responsible for her actions and make her fully aware that her choices have consequences.

Humans are curious by nature and we need to explain the logic behind rec limits similar to what is done with nitrox. Every type of gas divers breathe has a max operating depth at which point it can become fatal. If we satisfy basic curiosities persons will seek training or mentors prior to engaging in activities beyond their level simply because they understand the risk.

I can think of a dozen or more good reasons why divers at the OW level should not exceed recreational depths. And I'm very good at explaining those reasons and describing why they're a bad idea. Oxygen toxicity is not among those reasons. It doesn't have to be ... if, at the OW level, you're putting yourself at a depth where it can be a concern, you've already broken several basic safety rules that you should have known better than to break ... and in the process demonstrated that your judgment is so poor that you should not ever have been certified in the first place.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[lowviz]

Cnar, one could also look at this another way:

The certification process can also be a device that the novice can well use for obtaining personal instruction, skills development, information on unknown hazards, and context from a skilled and highly experienced diver that wouldn't otherwise give you the time of day. I look for interesting people first, and then see if they are teaching something that may benefit me.

Cards are nice too, you often get one at the end of it all...