What do you think about Advanced Open Water Diver Certification?

[Mr Carcharodon]

The instruction up in the BC area has a very good reputation so I expect it was excellent. What did you learn through fundies that you could not have picked up on your own?

 

[xdjio]

The instruction up in the BC area has a very good reputation so I expect it was excellent. What did you learn through fundies that you could not have picked up on your own?

The main thing was the ingraining of a lot of useful theory. For example - I could have (and did) research how to really calculate rock bottom, and so on. But a good instructor for Fundies really drilled that stuff into my head in a much better way than I expect I would have. So the classroom environment, if you will, was beneficial for me in that respect.

From a practical aspect, the rigorous training of the course itself has been tremendously useful. I learn best when I have some "pressure" and the pressure of wanting to succeed, and the new skills on the table, has been a great thing. Heck, learning a working, useful back-kick has been worth the price of admission alone. I'm certain trying to put together that sort of skill on my own would have been a lot more frustrating. As well, closing the disconnect between what I /thought/ I looked like and was doing, vs what I was actually doing, has been huge. No way I would have gotten that resolved without Fundies.

 

[DevonDiver]

Exactly what did AOW teach you that PADI OW was supposed to teach you, I'm just curious?

AOW allows progression and refinement of OW skills, whilst also introducing a wider breadth of experience and the opportunity to gain new specialist skills. It is a very flexible course - allowing a good instructor to tailor the focus and outcomes towards the specific needs or goals of the student.

Navigation: Nothing new, as OW students do practice a reciprocal bearing. However, most OW trained divers do need further practice with compass navigation, as a single out-and-back drill is hardly sufficient to develop familiarity and confidence with navigational skills. This is a refinement of OW training.

Deep: Nothing new, as no additional skills are introduced beyond the performance standards applicable to dives 2-4 of the Open Water course. It is more about 'gaining supervised experience', with the safety benefit of an instructor-supervision as depth progression is achieved. However, if taught effectively, a focus upon more precise dive planning, refined ascent/descent procedures and increased situational awareness can be developed. This is a capacity building dive, offering a progression to OW training.

The choice of elective dives, coupled with the motivation/talent/knowledge of the specific instructor, enables one of 4 learning outcomes to be gained:

1) Core skill development - Electives such as wreck, cavern, sidemount, tech basics or PPB can have a strong focus upon the development and refinement of core diving skills; buoyancy, trim, weighting, fin technique, buddy/team cohesion etc.

2) Activity experience - Electives such as photography, wreck, tech basics, fish ID or drift diving can offer a good introduction into specific scuba activities. This enables the student to ascertain their interest levels in given activities, along with providing an initial insight into the techniques and equipment they will need to pursue that interest.

3) Equipment familiarization - Electives such as sidemount, search-and-recovery, tech basics allow students to gain a basic familiarization into new equipment, diving configurations and their use.

4) Advanced skills primer - Electives such as wreck, search-and-recovery, tech basics, cavern etc can be taught as a primer for the development of advanced diving skills.

Obviously, one short dive per 'specialty area' is insufficient to develop a significant skill-base in a new aspect of diving. However, a clever instructor will ensure that skills are developed cumulatively over the duration of the course. i.e. Student develops their navigation skills on dive #1, but then refines and ingrains those skills by applying the techniques on every following dive on the course (taking responsibility for navigation on dives 2-5). They refine skills on the deep dive, (2nd dive of the course) and continue to apply those learnings on every subsequent dive (dives 3-5). Thus, considerable practice and embedding of skills and knowledge can occur...

 

[Centrals]

Perhaps, but how many go back to do full blown specialties unless they head down a technical tract? The masses gain the AOW smorgasbord of experieinces masqurading as demonstration of competence and head off to push the limits.
Pete

I did 5 of them before coming aross tec dive.

 

[Mr Carcharodon]

Obviously, one short dive per 'specialty area' is insufficient to develop a significant skill-base in a new aspect of diving. ...

Of course few students want to pay for significant skill development within a structured program. So experience outside of formal classes ends up being the basis of most divers education. That experience may not be easy for an outsider to evaluate, but nevertheless it is usually more valuable than classes.

 

[DevonDiver]

Of course few students want to pay for significant skill development within a structured program. So experience outside of formal classes ends up being the basis of most divers education. That experience may not be easy for an outsider to evaluate, but nevertheless it is usually more valuable than classes.

I don't think it's possible to put a qualitative value on experience. The acquisition of experience is as unique as the diver themselves, the dives they undertake and the mindset that they demonstrate in regards to learning/developing on the basis of their experience.

Just a 'formal course' can vary in respect of quality and learning outcome, so can the results of experience. Neither experience, mentoring or formal training is better or worse - all vary and all depend upon the learning divers' mindset and the extent to which they focus on developing themselves.

If a diver is motivated to improve their skills and safety in the water, they will do so regardless of the method used for improvement. The pace of development may vary depending on what resources they have access to - frequency of diving opportunity, varied diving locations, an experienced buddy/mentor, a great diving instructor, books, manuals,journals... even internet forums and groups.. etc etc

Where training really comes into its own is with 'de-motivated' divers - people who don't understand, acknowledge or be bothered with, the benefits of progressive development and refinement of their scuba competencies and knowledge. In this respect, formal training can provide benefits that wouldn't otherwise be gained from experience alone.

Experience, with improper mindset, can mean decreased skill (skill fade through lack of practice), development of a complacent attitude and/or the subtle drift into bad habits, sloppy procedures and general decline of ability. A period of formal training can remedy against such decline and, at the least, provide a benchmark of competence - something that the diver may not be able to honestly/accurately be able to perceive through self-analysis.

Validating experience is very difficult prior to diving. That's where certification cards have some benefit. It is relatively easy to quantify the benefit of experience once in-water. However, the issue remains that it can then be 'too late' to make a decision about diver limitations, when those limitations are only demonstrated by an inability to perform at the limits. An unsafe situation.

 

[TRM]

Wow, thanks for that. I am going to take the certs in time so I am not refused by a divemaster, love your additude.
Thanks

---------- Post Merged at 11:09 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 10:09 PM ----------

DAN insurance is any depth, just looked it up!

---------- Post Merged at 11:24 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 10:09 PM ----------

Yes I agree, I would never make someone go past their training and if they were brand new, we would just do a 60 or less dive off the shore, no worries.

---------- Post Merged at 11:35 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 10:09 PM ----------

Thats it, no shore dives were advanced, although one specialty for most the organizations is Shore Diving? It was mostly my boat diving to depth of more than 60 feet and some oil rig dives. I also did some in Cancun that were not within my cert, but within my abilities and had a guide on all those dives.

 

[Scuba Cat Diving]

DAN insurance and others have a 40m depth limit for recreational divers, BUT many divers just have holiday insurance which sets limits based on your qualification.

 

[DevonDiver]

DAN insurance is any depth, just looked it up!

DAN insurance and others have a 40m depth limit for recreational divers,...

You are both right...partially.

DAN has different policies for different regions. DAN USA is the only one that doesn't set a depth limit based upon qualification or recommended maximums for recreational divers.

Many (most?) other insurance providers have a clause to the same effect - if you exceed your stated qualification depth, then your insurance will be voided if an accident occurs.

There was a story, several years ago, of a British woman who exceeded her qualification (AOW) by diving to 40m whilst on holiday. She got DCS and her insurance wouldn't pay for medical treatment. She had to sell her house to cover the bill.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/6379839.stm

[TABLE="width: 629"]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 3"]Paralysed diver's insurance blow

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 416"][TABLE="width: 203, align: right"]
[TR]
[TD]

Ms Gower was only covered for 30m but was hurt on a 40m dive
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
A woman paralysed on a diving trip faces paying thousands for medical care in Egypt because her 40m dive was not covered by her standard insurance.

Angie Gower, 42, an experienced diver from Neath, south Wales, suffered spinal injuries and the bends during the dive off Hurghada, on the Red Sea.


The Post Office say they are following the terms of their insurance policy by refusing to pay for treatment.
A spokesman said her policy only covered her for dives down to 30m.


Mother-of-three Ms Gower, a member of the Neath Marlins Diving Club, flew out for the two-week trip with her partner, Mark Phillips, 33.


He remains at her hospital bedside in nearby El Gouna, where her medical bills are mounting.
Mr Phillips' father, Maurice, 68, told Radio Wales Ms Gower suffered the bends after an apparently normal dive with his son, who is a qualified diver medic and a commercial diver.
He said: "All this took off when she got back on the boat. There's no reason at all this should have happened.


'Hazardous activities'
"The health and accommodation bills are already running into their thousands. We are doing our best to help but we don't know where to turn."


Ms Gower, a psychiatric nurse, has three children, aged, 17, six and five, who are being cared for by their father at home in Neath.


Mr Phillips added: "This is such a terrible thing to happen to her. My son has not left her bedside."


Mr Phillips' mother, Gwyneth, said: "It's a rolling bill with the hospital. At the moment it's in the thousands of pounds."


A Post Office spokesman said: "Our travel insurance contract for holidaymakers clearly states that scuba-divers are covered to a maximum depth of 30 metres, which is standard across the travel insurance industry, due to the increased risks of diving at greater depths.
"This policy covers the overwhelming majority of recreational and qualified scuba-divers, with only the most advanced diving below 30 metres.


"Of course we always encourage people undertaking specialist or dangerous activities on holiday to check that they are fully covered, by calling our helpline."


Ms Gower's Welsh Assembly Member Gwenda Thomas said: "I sympathise with her situation and am trying to get her flown home as a matter of urgency."


Hyperbaric
A Foreign and Commonwealth Office spokeswoman said: "We are aware of the case and are in regular contact with the next of kin - her husband and his family in the UK.


"Even this morning we were in contact with the family. The Honorary Consul in Cairo visited them on February 15 and we will continue to provide consular assistance.
"Now it is a question of waiting for her to be well enough to fly."


Ms Gower is not expected to be permanently paralysed as a result of her accident, and is having treatment in the hospital's hyperbaric unit.


Mrs Phillips added: "The first news we had was that Angie was paralysed from the neck down, but fortunately she's making good progress.


"The treatment is ongoing. She won't be well enough to travel until she has permission from the doctors to travel."
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[DCBC]

If that is how you train your students, then you are doing them a disservice! The OW card is supposed indicate the new diver has been given all the skill and knowledge require to make dives within the NDL which includes 130 FSW.

The 60 foot "limit" is a recommendation to new divers to expand thier diving experience slowly and incrementally. It is NOT to limit them to an arbitrary depth because you have no faith inyour teaching methods to allow them to go deeper.

But go ahead, keep churning out half-trained divers.

In all fairness, this is largely agency dependent. The depth limit to which a diver may safely dive is a personal one, mitigated by the training s/he received and their subsequent experience. Also not all instructors produce the same level of student (although many receive the same card). Based on the requirements of many training agencies, I believe that an 'Advanced Certification' is a misnomer. Grade 2 is more 'advanced' than Grade 1, but few would call this an 'Advanced Class' ...