What do you think about Advanced Open Water Diver Certification?

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I think the PADI course is mostly an advanced sales pitch and most other agencies fit that bill as well. When you can go directly from OW to AOW and never make a dive without instructor guidance you are hardly advanced. I believe it is a huge disservice to the diving students, especially the younger and more impressionable ones, as many will believe that since they did one deep dive they are now a deep diver, they did one navigation dive so they will always be able to find their way back to the anchor line; after all, they are advanced divers right?. I can't help but to think that anything that say's advanced should be something you had to work for.


The only people I see claiming that the AOW course makes someone an advanced diver are the people that are criticizing the course for NOT making someone an advanced diver. My local PADI does not claim the course will make me an advanced diver. I will repost the last paragraph from my previous post so you can read it.
Don’t Let the Name Fool You….
Don’texpect to leave the program as an “Advanced Diver”. Taking a course is only onepart of becoming a confident diver, you have to gain experience by diving. Bysuccessfully completing the program, you will have expanded your abilities,learned new techniques and received feedback from an instructor on how to getthe most out of diving!
 
I'm sure this has been said on many similar threads, but as a newly minted OW diver I had no confidence whatsoever to dive without an instructor or DM as a buddy. I think AOW has maximum value for the diver with about 15-25 dives. For my first few dives after OW, I was still a bit overwhelmed with everything I had to do and keep track of, so the learning opportunities of specialty dives would have been lost on me. And if I had taken AOW after having racked up more than about 25 dives, I would probably not have benefited as much from it. But having taken it at the "sweet spot" of say, the 20-dive mark, it really helped me along. At that point, I had calmed down enough in the water that I could actually think about the dive environment and purpose of the dive rather than nervously obsess throughout the dive about my gear, gauges, buddy, etc. I got to do my first night dive, navigation and a deep dive. I would never have felt comfortable doing a night dive for the first time had I not done it in AOW with an instructor. And if compass use was covered in OW class, I had sure forgotten about it by the time I took AOW. I'm sure nitrogen narcosis and other "deep dive" considerations were mentioned in OW class, but these things didn't have much meaning to me at the time--there was a LOT to absorb in OW class in a very short period of time. For me, it was only after having a few dives under my belt that I could make more room in my brain for these topics that were lightly covered in OW class. Taking the AOW class--and specifically taking it at around the 20-dive mark--was very beneficial for me.
 
But the dive operators, many times, are the ones causing the emphasis to be placed on the advanced part of the AOW cert. Example: the Speigel Grove, AOW required to dive. Does this lead some new AOW divers to dive beyond their ability because if they are "advanced" enough to dive the SG according to the operators, then they must be truly advanced? If the advanced open water does not make you truly advanced then that word and all that it implies should be removed from the cert and the card; they are advertising you as something that even they admit you have not attained.
 
Here's my take....

1) Like everything else, individuals are going to get out no more than they put in. If you sign up for a card you'll at best get a card. If you sign up for additional knowledge and experience you may get that too. If you sign up because an instructor didn't want to introduce one of his students to you (the OP's scenario)...well I'm not sure what you'll get to be honest.

2) Some people see training as a way to exclude. In other words, if you have a course where 50% of the students drop out, and you change it so that 25% of students drop out, a vocal group will always see that as a negative outcome. It doesn't matter to whether the change is because of better training material, lower costs, changed educational focus, removal of obsolete subject matter, or anything else. The purpose was to exclude and increasing the pass rate defeats that purpose. They will argue that the course was watered down or whatever fits their narrative but it boils down to the course no longer serving the purpose they wanted it to serve. This isn't diving-specific by any means. "Kids these days...."

3) Personally, I find the whole card and course fixation of the scuba world a bit off-putting. That's especially true with a card like AOW where you literally don't know what it means. A person with an AOW card could have experience with dry suits, altitude diving, and buoyancy control or with counting fish, National Geographic-ing, and taking green photographs.

I have a few dives under my belt since OW and I'm planning on taking AOW as soon as I have the free time. I view it as another chance to dive with an instructor. I have zero interest in the card to be honest but that's the way the diving world rolls so I'll take it. I actually asked a few instructors about doing hourly instruction but the logistics haven't worked so far, otherwise that's what I would do.
 
But the dive operators, many times, are the ones causing the emphasis to be placed on the advanced part of the AOW cert. Example: the Speigel Grove, AOW required to dive. Does this lead some new AOW divers to dive beyond their ability because if they are "advanced" enough to dive the SG according to the operators, then they must be truly advanced? If the advanced open water does not make you truly advanced then that word and all that it implies should be removed from the cert and the card; they are advertising you as something that even they admit you have not attained.

Even if the dive operators state this, the decision is still up to you! You know your skill level and whether or not you are ready to make that dive. No matter what your Cert card says. I've been to Key largo, and even though I'm AOW and Deep certified, I've never been out to the Spiegal Grove or any other deep site because I knew my skill level wasn't where I wanted it to be do dive those sites. Yes there are some divers who have lucky dives, (they are lucky nothing went wrong) if the dive operators will let them get on the boat, they will dive it, regardless of skill level.
 
With the greatest respect, I disagree because AOW is not the sole source from which a diver can obtain information

Good point and I agree. But it is a great spot for someone to learn a little something about a few different things and find what they really like while learning in a safe environment. Also it gets you the ability to get into rescue which in my opinion is one of the best certifications you can get.
 
As an OW diver I have been reading this thread with interest. I have so far avoided doing my AOW course, partly due to lack of funding but also partly because I am unsure what I will learn. Looking at the manual and having talked to other AOW divers it always seems like less of a training course and more of an expensive way of doing 5 more dives (that could be just poor training or poor trainee I suppose).

On holiday I have never had a problem not being AOW but that's because I have only done simple dives. Locally I do exceed the training but only in relation to depth, usually in the 20-25m range but no overhead or the like.

Based on the comments in this thread I am still unsure about the PADI AOW and am now thinking that the BSAC sports diver may be a better route as it does appear to require some theory alongside the practical. Does anyone have experience of advanced training that does pick up more than just the extra dives? If I'm going to spend money I want the most out of it. I am UK based which may limit the agencies available to me.

This is going to take the thread a bit off topic.

west0ne,

The AOW qualification is an entry level for BSAC Sports Diver, as is basic OW, because there is little difference in the skill/knowledge level.

The Sports Diver course will train you in (see link for full details):

  • Controlled Buoyant Lift, surface tow with Rescue Breaths, de-kitting the casualty and yourself in shallow water (about 1m deep), removal from water and deliver Rescue Breaths on land.
  • Further confidence building skills – removal and retrieval of mask and DV.
  • Further confidence in providing Assistance to an OOG diver.
  • Further confident in planning and leading dives.
  • How to descend and ascend a shot-line.
  • Navigation skills using a compass and pilotage.
  • Use of a Surface Marker Buoy.
  • Deployment of a Delayed Surface Marker Buoy from the bottom and complete a stop during the ascent.
  • Planning and execution of a dive requiring a decompression stop, including gas management.
  • Assisting the Dive Manger run a diving event for a day.

There are a series of theory lessons and test that run alongside the practical activities above.

On completion the depth certification is still 20m; post qualification 25, 30 and 35m can be undertaken with an instructor and signed-off to increase the certified depth rating.

Kind regards
 
You do not need AOW to take rescue. A few agencies allow rescue after OW with just ten more dives. Again do not delay a rescue class just because you don't have an AOW card. Find an independent instructor or shop that doesn't have to abide by any such silly rules.

And an FYI these are the new SEI Levels I posted in the SEI forum. This is also as good a place as any to post them again just for information. If anyone wants details, has comments -good or bad (they will not be censored in that forum by the Moderator for it - me), suggestions, or would like to know the reason for the changes in the designations feel free to ask.
Advanced OW Level Names
Beginning September 1, 2012 the changed names of the advanced courses will go into effect. This will better align with the CMAS "star" levels.

Wall certificates and certification cards will show these new designations.

The new levels are:

Advanced Diver Level 1
(formerly OW+)

Advanced Diver Level 2
(formerly AD OW)

Advanced Diver Level 3
(formerly AD OW+)

Master Diver Level 4
(formerly Master Diver)

The levels have specific skill and knowledge requirements that reflect the items they contain. The prerequisites are the same and instructors are free to set their own requirements for admission to the classes on top of those set by the agency. They are also free to add information and test on those additions for certification. I was involved with this whole process, and just to be clear even though rescue can be taken with us any time after OW and ten dives, there is a requirement that was put in at my urging that all of these levels include the basic rescue skills that every SEI OW diver gets in their basic class. It was put in due to the number of divers that myself and other instructors were seeing come to us without those skills. They can be added to the class itself or done as a workshop prior to the formal class. But when a diver is certed at any of these levels they will at a minimum have the panicked diver at the surface, unconscious diver from depth, supporting a diver at the surface and helping them ditch their weights, and rescue tow while stripping gear.

Master Diver level 4 has a full rescue class requirement as a prerequisite. It is also a complete class unto itself that imparts instructor level knowledge and skill performance without the teaching component.

I also insisted on formal classroom instruction for levels 2 and 3 for all the dives that would be done. AOW or as I now call it ADL 2 and ADL 3 are not tastes or tours. They are meant to impart NEW skills and knowledge above what the diver already has. And since we are free to add to the courses I know that myself and other instructors could set a course to challenge the diver with 10 or 15 dives taking or the one with 50. And I have. And frankly so should every instructor be allowed to do this to add value to their courses and maybe get those 50 or 100 dive vacation divers in who see no value to anything above the OW card they have because they won't be challenged.

If your potential student has already done some 100 foot dives and think the combination lock at depth of writing their name backwards is silly (which in reality it is at any level) then have them do something different. Have them run a reel out and back while managing a light and staying 1 foot off the bottom and not silting it up. Can be done. But make sure you can do it yourself first. Some instructors have never even run a reel outside of a S&R class. And that it's the only time they do is scary.

Advanced training should never be done just to get 5 more dives or whatever with an instructor. If one wants to do that just invite the instructor to dive and buy him/her lunch! I'd do that in a heartbeat over taking someone on dives they really were not ready for. And I have seen plenty of AOW classes that had no business taking place at all with the skill level of the students in them. I'd rather spend a day with a student or students doing fun dives shallow and giving them a few tips and pointers to work on before tossing them in an advanced class. Makes it easier on everybody. And I see nothing wrong with charging for those little workshops if there is travel and real expenses involved.

And I think many divers would rather do that if they have no plans to do deep dives, night dives, or some of the others ones that seem to cause anxiety in AOW students. You don't need to make it a certification card thing. Screw that. Just give them the knowledge and skills and get them ready for a good advanced course that they will truly benefit from and you, as an instructor, will have fun running.

I love doing advanced training with students that are ready for it. You can push them a little and see improvements in leaps and bounds when they feel challenged. Not scared but challenged because they have the necessary foundation skills to do the things you require of them. And when you ask a question on the surface and they have the answer. Not like the class I saw getting ready to do their deep dive.

We were right next to them on the dock and the instructor had 4 or 5 students. They were doing the predive briefing and he asked them what the procedure was if they ran over their NDL for the dive. Three people answered and all three were wrong. And he still took them on the dive. That should have been the time to stop, take the gear off, and have a little classroom time right there and then. Not joke about it and jump in the water after he told them the answer. Which I doubt, given the setting, they would remember anyway.​
 
AOW is a useless course from 99% of instructors. The only reason anyone "needs" an AOW card is to be allowed to go on certain dives from dive charters because they require it and it's a case of "thier boat, thier rules".

I totally agree. It's a freakin' racket.

If you have a good instructor, AOW can shorten the learning curve to becoming a more rounded diver, but you can learn everything yourself just from diving. Frankly, any shop that acted all high and mighty about you not having AOW would be a shop I never set foot in again.

I also agree. Alas, most AOW classes are nothing more than five guided dives with an instructor.

Lastly, you didn't violate your training. Your OW card says you are ready to plan and execute dives up to 130 foot.

And so what if you "violate" your training? Is it smart to do so? Probably not, but there's no laws that says you can't dive down to 200-ft on OW cert and a tank full of air.

I'd dive with somebody who has 50-dives or 100-dives in local water condition than somebody with OW and AOW and a whole ten dives to their name.
 
you don't know what you don't know........


regrettably, taking an AOW class can go either way...
 
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