What do you think about Advanced Open Water Diver Certification?

[DivemasterDennis]

The AOW class has great value for those who invest their time and focus in it, both as student and instructor. I recommend you take it. But here are some more thoughts from my latest blog, which are relevant to this discussion:

Credentials and Competence:
Having spent another summer working with student divers at all levels, and having been diving on a few trips with certified divers at all levels, I have been thinking lately about the correlation between certification level and competence in the water. I am big proponent of continuing diver education, whether an advanced open water course, specialties, or even professional track certifications like DM and Instructor. I think every diver who invests themselves in a continuing education course emerges as a better diver in at least one, and often, many ways. But a given certification level does not translate into an increased competence level in every case. There are, as we know, divers with an advanced open water rating that have 10 dives, all course certification related. There are also open water divers who have hundreds of dives, have dove in a variety of conditions, are active divers, very familiar with their equipment, and have great in water skills and habits. Yet some dive concessions will let the AOW card holder with ten dives and 4 hours of bottom time go on a dive in conditions unlike any they have dove, to depths they have never dove, while denying the open water diver with hundreds of dives and experience in similar conditions the privilege of doing the same dive unless they pay for a private divemaster. I place more stock in competence than credentials, but a diver's competence can really only be evaluated by diving with them. There can be much learned from an accurate and detailed log book, however, like how many dives in what locations and conditions, how recently, and to what depths the diver has been. (That's one reason I am a big fan of all divers logging every dive. ) I also like to engage divers in conversation about these subjects. Good divers learn (or should learn) from every dive, whether there is an instructor involved or not. And, as we have read in some posts here on scuba board, some people take continuing education classes just to a get a card and really don't engage in the class at any substantial level. I urge all divers to be active divers, to learn from every dive, to stretch their comfort zones a little now and then when diving with experienced buddies and dive leaders, and to continue their formal diving education in areas of interest to them as well as in general "next step" classes like AOW. Active divers are competent divers in my experience, regardless of certification level. It's hard to maintain competence as a diver if you don't dive. So my formula for competence is: get certified, then go diving, then dive some more, then maybe take a class, then keep diving, regularly, as often as you can. Let your performance in the be your credential of competence, along with that advanced diver card.
DivemasterDennis

 

[cbm32]

What am I missing here???

The OP says that an instructor was willing to send one of his students to dive with another diver but then changed his mind when he learned that the other diver was not AOW.

1. If the student is an OW student he shouldn't be sent to dive with anyone that isn't an instructor. So what difference does it make if the guy has an AOW or not?

2. If the student is OW certified he should be ready to dive with anyone as a buddy that is OW certified or above. So what does AOW have to do with anything?

So, if it was a newly minted OW student I think the decision should be left to the student and if the instructor had a problem with the OP's diving pattern he could have simple asked that the OP restrict the dives to those that are suitable for a newly minted OW diver.

 

[ScubaSteve1962]

What am I missing here???

Without any input from the instructor we are assuming that the student was probably someone fresh out of OW, and from the dives the OP described he had done in a short time, the instructor didn't want him to take someone beyond their training because he thinks it's okay to risk it.

 

[D_Vince]

You know its sort of funny that all the professionals here that have commented on whether the AOW course is / Should be mandatory at a certain point in someone's dive education, and weather a newly certified or even an experienced Open Water Diver should be allowed to go beyond the recommended 18 Meters / 60 Foot limit.
I have worked as an instructor for quite a while now, I didn't become a PADI professional till the year 2000, before that all I taught was Tech courses.
While I dont know what everyone's certification levels in this discussion are, I do know that at least one of the people commenting on this is a Course Director, (A very good one I might add).
However no one here has commented on just "Why" these limits are recommended, why is that?
Does anyone know "Why" the limit for an open water diver is 18 Meters / 60 FSW?
And to this I will add that as far as I remember, it also adds a statement something on the order of: "unless they can show experience, or training beyond the open water level", which would be at the instructor, or Guides discretion, and any decent liveaboard, or Instructor / Shop will do a evaluation dive before the fun diving starts, and the evaluation would include everything from how comfortable they are with the equipment, Own their own or using rental kit, how well they can check the gear after its set up.
I for instance show people that they should try to take a soft breath off both 2nd stages before you turn the air on, to check the integrity of the Diaphragm, and that the purge is not displaced, while most divers are taught to purge the 2nd stage, then they have to hit it to stop it free flowing (because no one has explained what the venturi assist really does, and that just partial blocking the mouth piece will stop it a lot better than hitting it)
Then they stick it in their mouths, and take two or three enormous breaths and declare it's Ok...
At this point i usually as what it is that they are testing for with those breaths, because unless i was being attacked, or have a bunch of students on Dive one who actually "Scatter" as soon as they get underwater leaving me Alone, and picturing dead folks, I doubt that I would ever need that sort of breathing technique.
The usually ask what I'm on about, so I ask them to test the "Cracking pressure" of the reg by taking the slowest, lightest, longest breath they can off it, because under water, that's what they will be shooting for, not the Great Huge Huffs on the reg.
The Buddy Check, do they do it at all?
I have always received compliments from customers because i always do a Buddy check (and I still log all my dives too) and make it easy fro them to do it at the same time.
Next, the entry, how comfortable they are with that, Buddy skills, are they good (Aware, and not too close or far) then Buoyancy skills, I dont know what its like where you work, but a lot of holiday divers are pretty dam hard on the environment.
how valuable would you class a client who comes in to your office and pays for a "Widget" your selling, but in the process he smashes your windows, and display cases?
Buoyancy skills are important, because its my workplace, when it's gone, I'm out of a job.
I really doubt that a Taxi driver would be happy if after you paid him you hopped out and slashed two of his tires...
Last the exit, how were they on that Ladder that is bouncing up and down in those 1 meter swels, are they almost getting us both killed because they are having a hard time removing their fins at the Dive ladder?
Are they holding the ladder too tightly so that they are dragged almost under that bouncing dive deck?
Finally do they secure their gear properly when it's back on the boat?
Remove the 1st stage, attach the bungees properly etc etc.

Anyway, Back to my point, why the 18 Meter 60 FSW depth limit?
Because that's what their training and experience has shown them they can do.
how long does a student have to do the free flowing regulator skill for?
And the minimum time at a full ascent rate from their maximum depth (18-60) is???
how about the no mask breathing, its timed as well, any relationship here between that time and an ascent from 18/60?
The CESA, now its not really recommended from 18M/60FSW, but they do have a length in the pool, and in the IDC it shouldn't be done too quickly, because its a simulated ascent. (30 seconds minimum if I remember correctly)
Last but not least, teaching Rescue before AOW, or adventure diver, is not really logical, not everyone just jumps in to the water and acts like a fish, and these courses are designed to the needs of the least confident / competent student, sure its boring the arse off the few who find it easy, but they just have to find a way to deal with it.
Give them a line off the float across the sand to hold on to, and a cheap digital camera, they can hold the line and snap some pics, get inventive, but in a safe manner.
Don't let them amuse themselves trying out how to deploy a Delayed SMB OW dive 1-2....
Also remember there are standards, they are set by the agencies that are authorised to issue cert cards on the recommendation of an instructor.
If you teach beyond the standards, your no longer teaching "their" course, your teaching "Your" course.
God forbid, but it can happen to anyone, If there is an Accident, your fault or not and it comes out that you haven't followed the "Agencies standards" you will probably be sued, and you will lose.
That's the best case scenario.
Worst case is being sued for an "Absence of Duty of care" and "wrongful death".
Standards are in place first for the students or customers safety, as well as my own, so I do my damnedest to stay within them.

Dive Safe
Duke

 

[redacted]

You know its sort of funny that all the professionals here that have commented on whether the AOW course is / Should be mandatory at a certain point in someone's dive education, and weather a newly certified or even an experienced Open Water Diver should be allowed to go beyond the recommended 18 Meters / 60 Foot limit.
I have worked as an instructor for quite a while now, I didn't become a PADI professional till the year 2000, before that all I taught was Tech courses.
While I dont know what everyone's certification levels in this discussion are, I do know that at least one of the people commenting on this is a Course Director, (A very good one I might add).
However no one here has commented on just "Why" these limits are recommended, why is that?
Does anyone know "Why" the limit for an open water diver is 18 Meters / 60 FSW?
And to this I will add that as far as I remember, it also adds a statement something on the order of: "unless they can show experience, or training beyond the open water level", which would be at the instructor, or Guides discretion, and any decent liveaboard, or Instructor / Shop will do a evaluation dive before the fun diving starts, and the evaluation would include everything from how comfortable they are with the equipment, Own their own or using rental kit, how well they can check the gear after its set up.
I for instance show people that they should try to take a soft breath off both 2nd stages before you turn the air on, to check the integrity of the Diaphragm, and that the purge is not displaced, while most divers are taught to purge the 2nd stage, then they have to hit it to stop it free flowing (because no one has explained what the venturi assist really does, and that just partial blocking the mouth piece will stop it a lot better than hitting it)
Then they stick it in their mouths, and take two or three enormous breaths and declare it's Ok...
At this point i usually as what it is that they are testing for with those breaths, because unless i was being attacked, or have a bunch of students on Dive one who actually "Scatter" as soon as they get underwater leaving me Alone, and picturing dead folks, I doubt that I would ever need that sort of breathing technique.
The usually ask what I'm on about, so I ask them to test the "Cracking pressure" of the reg by taking the slowest, lightest, longest breath they can off it, because under water, that's what they will be shooting for, not the Great Huge Huffs on the reg.
The Buddy Check, do they do it at all?
I have always received compliments from customers because i always do a Buddy check (and I still log all my dives too) and make it easy fro them to do it at the same time.
Next, the entry, how comfortable they are with that, Buddy skills, are they good (Aware, and not too close or far) then Buoyancy skills, I dont know what its like where you work, but a lot of holiday divers are pretty dam hard on the environment.
how valuable would you class a client who comes in to your office and pays for a "Widget" your selling, but in the process he smashes your windows, and display cases?
Buoyancy skills are important, because its my workplace, when it's gone, I'm out of a job.
I really doubt that a Taxi driver would be happy if after you paid him you hopped out and slashed two of his tires...
Last the exit, how were they on that Ladder that is bouncing up and down in those 1 meter swels, are they almost getting us both killed because they are having a hard time removing their fins at the Dive ladder?
Are they holding the ladder too tightly so that they are dragged almost under that bouncing dive deck?
Finally do they secure their gear properly when it's back on the boat?
Remove the 1st stage, attach the bungees properly etc etc.

Anyway, Back to my point, why the 18 Meter 60 FSW depth limit?
Because that's what their training and experience has shown them they can do.
how long does a student have to do the free flowing regulator skill for?
And the minimum time at a full ascent rate from their maximum depth (18-60) is???
how about the no mask breathing, its timed as well, any relationship here between that time and an ascent from 18/60?
The CESA, now its not really recommended from 18M/60FSW, but they do have a length in the pool, and in the IDC it shouldn't be done too quickly, because its a simulated ascent. (30 seconds minimum if I remember correctly)
Last but not least, teaching Rescue before AOW, or adventure diver, is not really logical, not everyone just jumps in to the water and acts like a fish, and these courses are designed to the needs of the least confident / competent student, sure its boring the arse off the few who find it easy, but they just have to find a way to deal with it.
Give them a line off the float across the sand to hold on to, and a cheap digital camera, they can hold the line and snap some pics, get inventive, but in a safe manner.
Don't let them amuse themselves trying out how to deploy a Delayed SMB OW dive 1-2....
Also remember there are standards, they are set by the agencies that are authorised to issue cert cards on the recommendation of an instructor.
If you teach beyond the standards, your no longer teaching "their" course, your teaching "Your" course.
God forbid, but it can happen to anyone, If there is an Accident, your fault or not and it comes out that you haven't followed the "Agencies standards" you will probably be sued, and you will lose.
That's the best case scenario.
Worst case is being sued for an "Absence of Duty of care" and "wrongful death".
Standards are in place first for the students or customers safety, as well as my own, so I do my damnedest to stay within them.

Dive Safe
Duke

Where do you get this nonsense? Exactly how does a slow breath test cracking pressure.

It sounds to me like your part of the diving world is more interested in the conduct of baby sitting than professional recreational scuba diving.

 

[fire_diver]

to D-vince: HOGWASH!

Who the hell "hits" thier second stage to stop a free flow? Anyone doing that should go slap thier OW instructor upside to head for his/her failure to teach.

How can you claim a 60 foot limit is there because that is what they have been taught? Many OW classes never take thier students below 30 foot. According to your theory, those students will never be able to dive beyond 30 feet until they take another class.

And your theories on gently sucking on thier reg is just as rediculous.

 

[xdjio]

It's probably been said already but I think more than any other course I've taken, the value (or not) of AOW depends on the instructor, the student, and how well their goals align and the student's own experience.

I'm just finishing up GUE Fundamentals right now, and I did AOW in January of this year. AOW was valuable for me, in terms of showing me what PADI didn't teach me and wasn't going to teach me. AOW taught me how much I wanted to take Fundies, and my expectations and hopes for Fundies were right on the money.

 

[D_Vince]

to D-vince: HOGWASH!

Q:Who the hell "hits" thier second stage to stop a free flow? Anyone doing that should go slap thier OW instructor upside to head for his/her failure to teach.
A:Who hits their regulator to stop a free flow? about 90% of the people i have seen dive, if you haven't seen it, I i would be surprised.

Q:How can you claim a 60 foot limit is there because that is what they have been taught? Many OW classes never take thier students below 30 foot. According to your theory, those students will never be able to dive beyond 30 feet until they take another class.
A: I didnt say that the 60 FSW limit was there because that's what they were taught, I was saying that there is a relationship between what they experience in the confined water dives,( Ie. some of the timed tasks) and the Depth limit.

And your theories on gently sucking on thier reg is just as rediculous.

So when you dive, you breath as hard and fast as you possibly can?
Maybe I over stressed that the breath you should take off the 2nd stages should be a "Normal breath", but again "Most" people take two or three great huge lung-fulls of air and what does that test?
It tells you that the air will come out, (while your at the surface) not a lot else.

---------- Post Merged at 03:30 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 03:20 AM ----------

Q:Where do you get this nonsense? Exactly how does a slow breath test cracking pressure.
A: How does it not? my company does repairs and annual servicing of regulators of all types, and whether your using a Magnehelic gauge, or just going on experience, you do breath as gently as possible to gauge how easy the reg is to "Start" the breath.

S: It sounds to me like your part of the diving world is more interested in the conduct of baby sitting than professional recreational scuba diving.

A: it sounds to me like you know nothing about me, but like anyone your entitled to your opinion.

 

[TMHeimer]

I'd like to see you provide a reference to illustrate that, because I don't believe that any mainstream agency has such a policy, formal or informal.

A DM qualification in no way trains or certifies a Divemaster to take a qualified diver beyond the limits of their training or experience. A Divemaster is not an instructor - they aren't authorized to teach new skills, or provide new knowledge. The agencies consider deeper diving to require increased skills and knowledge. In fact, AOW Deep Dives are one of the few elements of training that at DM specifically cannot guide, without direct instructor supervision...

What I believe you are talking about is the prevalence of 'trust me dives' carried out by some dive pros, in the interests of profit rather than diver safety.

Trust me dives are not "condoned".

I would assume you are correct with your experience. Then I would also assume that any OW diver, no matter how experienced, is not sanctioned by any agency to ever exceed 60'. The example I will cite is my own. My first boat dive. A NAUI instructor was on board with her class. She asked me if I had a problem going to 75' or so. I said no, as I have always been comfortable in water. She buddied me with her husband, a "very experienced" diver (not sure at the time or now if he was in fact even a DM). So it was probably at "trust me" dive, as you point out. He disappeared on me to go after lobsters. Not a great feeling at 78'. But please elaborate on when, if ever, an OW diver should go below 60', with or without a DM. I would like to know what the official line from PADI and others is regarding divers with increased experience expanding their depths. Also, I would like your thoughts on what the term "recommended depth" by PADI (as previously mentioned in this thread) means.

I will give another example of OW below 60':
Excerpts from web site of a PADI shop that recently was awarded the Outstanding Dive Business Award at DEMA. The owner has trained over 4,000 students and is one of 63 worldwide Platinum Course Directors.

DIVE REQUIREMENTS (for their charters): You must:
--be an OW diver or higher level of cert.
--have experience at 30-50' or you can hire a DM (3 hr. charter)
***--have experience at 60-90' --or hire a DM to be your buddy.

What are your thoughts? Are they following PADI standards or not? I will e mail PADI to see what they say about the word "recommended".
--

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Exceeding standards may be taboo for some but what if the agency encourages it's instructors in it's standards to go beyond them and exceed them as they see fit to best serve their students. That is what my agency does and also allows us to test on those additions as part of the cert. Reason being is they trust the instructor to best judge the skills and knowledge the student needs to safely dive in their area. I can require students to perform some skills using a blacked out mask in their last pool session since we dive in condtitons where zero vis is a possibility at any time. Our CEO is actually the one who gave me the idea to do this. And since our standards require us to exceed them we are good as far as insurance goes. We actually teach rescue skills in the OW class as well. The buddy system was founded on the idea that if your buddy had a problem you could assist them. Taking rescue skills out of the OW class goes directly against that idea. And refusing rescue skills until much later also goes against that.