The right way to get certified

[fjpatrum]

In my neck of the woods... you don't make recommendations regarding a hobby/sport when your experience is still very limited.

Why? Is it not possible to have an educated opinion without the actual practical experience to back the opinion? For that matter, what if the recommendation is "seek more training"?

Statements like this always baffle me... education isn't always about practical experience and practical experience doesn't necessarily give you the "right" answers/recommendations for others.

 

[beester]

Why? Is it not possible to have an educated opinion without the actual practical experience to back the opinion? For that matter, what if the recommendation is "seek more training"?

Statements like this always baffle me... education isn't always about practical experience and practical experience doesn't necessarily give you the "right" answers/recommendations for others.

You are correct that pratical experience doesn't necessarily gives the right to make recommendations. I know plenty of very experienced divers who still have wrong ideas or make wrong assumptions. I possibly will make some myself.

However I do believe that scuba-diving is a very pratical hobby. There are some theoretical fringes and if you move from recreational to more technical diving these fringes will become quite large but in the end it's not rocket-science and diving is a very practical hobby. In short you don't learn to dive from a book, and I do state that a diver who has minimal theoretical background but has done 200 dives in various circumstances (good-bad vis, cold-warm water, current, shoredives, wrecks, deep, deco, etc) will know much more than someone with 20 dives but who has read every book known to diving back to back, is moderator of 2 dive-forums and visits the rubicon archive daily. That being said... old hands also need to constantly re-evaluate their own assumptions and gospel... otherwise you become a dinosaur who thinks deepair is safe practise

The dangerous part is that advice is free but not always good. Old hands can filter out all the bad info or know which are reputable sources...however new divers can't. So if someone with 20 dives under his belt makes overly general statements... I'll take it with a grain of salt, but the new diver might take it as gospel.

A couple of weeks ago I took a diver to a quarry. I was going to dive with him because he bought a dry-suite and it was his first dive with it. So I was going to give some insiders for a couple of dives, to show him the ropes so to speak. After the dive we were sitting in a pub with alot of other divers from other groups and I saw a girl talking to the new dry-suit diver... stating stuff like "you don't need a byuancy device with a dry-suit you can do all your trimming on the suit" or "keep the deflator closed, only open it when you start your ascend"... I asked around and this girl was a diver with 30 dives, non of them in dry-suit. She sure read alot on the net...

 

[jm]

People will tell you that you should get certified in the states through a formal course, then go to the Caribbean. They tell you not to get certified in the Caribbean, "Because they just want to get you in and out as quickly as possible". They say you'll have much greater skill as a scuba diver doing it in the states first.

Well, I did it both ways, and I don't agree. As long as you get certified at a reputable resort with dedicated and thorough instructors, you'll learn just fine there. And you'll have more fun, because generally speaking the people in a resort are nicer. They know you're there to have a good time, and they make sure that the learning experience is an enjoyable one.

The classroom portion can be done on-line or in a classroom. I recommend doing both. It costs a bit more that way, but there are things you can't get through the computer. I don't recommend doing just the classroom, though, because the PADI online course is so good. It's very thorough. And it's fun.

So my recommendation is: Contact a resort of your choosing, book a vacation to include an open water certification course. Then do the PADI online course before you go.

I don't think that there is a "right way" to learn to dive, especially local versus resort. There are several different paths to achieve certification, as other people have already stated. There will be both advantages and disadvantages to each, whether you choose to be certified locally, get your certification on your holiday or a combination of both.

A comparison would be learning to drive a car. I went to a driving school but I have many friends who were taught by their parents. Even though the school covered some basic information in greater detail than my friends parents did I would say that after many years of driving we are probably about the same in terms of skills and safety, IMHO ( no supporting statistics). I think that this is because each of us had to evolve our skills as drivers over the years, due to moving away from where we were born and now driving in different areas and coping with different challenges such as more traffic or longer distances to travel.

The key word is evolve, or more accurately to continue learning and gaining experience. As divers we have to accept that there is always more to know, whether you have ten dives or ten thousand. Once the initial certification course is over we need to personally assume responsibility for our skills and knowledge in order to improve and grow as divers. Learning can take many forms, some of which are virtually free. For instance, by engaging in conversation with other divers and instructors here on ScubaBoard you are learning. Of course, the very best way to learn is to go out and dive because all the reading and research in the world does not replace in water time.

Years ago when I got my pilots license the examiner said something that I believe has proven true. He told me that flying was a skill that you could learn in a few months but it took the rest of your life to get good at it. I think that this also applies to diving.

 

[DevonDiver]

You are correct that pratical experience doesn't necessarily gives the right to make recommendations....
The dangerous part is that advice is free but not always good. Old hands can filter out all the bad info or know which are reputable sources...however new divers can't. So if someone with 20 dives under his belt makes overly general statements... I'll take it with a grain of salt, but the new diver might take it as gospel.

Stating an opinion is fine, regardless of experience/qualification. However, an opinion made without a basis of experience should only ever be regarded as a hypothesis and should be represented as such.

The best way to get certified is....

versus...

I guess that the best way to get certified is...

versus...

I've done X number of scuba courses and qualified Y number of student divers and completed Z number of dives, which leads me to the opinion that he best way to get certified is....

An opinion made on the basis of experience, maybe regarded as more than hypothetical. That experience may be personal, or it may be third-party (the result of a 'study'). The relative weight of the opinion could be regarded in respect of the 'sample size' - the amount of relevant experience and size/depth of the study. Again, where opinions are formulated from experience, it helps clarify their weight if the nature of that experience is represented.

My opinion, on wreck penetration, based upon X training that I've recieved and Y amount of wreck penetration dives I have completed is that.....

versus

My opinion, on wreck penetration, based upon a consensus I see when reading the forum is....

It'd be fair to credit opinions, based on 'study' from board activity/debate, as experienced-based. However, the nature of board discussions doesn't lend itself to any notion of accuracy or infallibility, in respect of the 'sample'.

What I see Matt doing is representing an opinion, based upon a 'study' of experience shared on the forum. That's a valid and credible reason to formulate an opinion...and one which he has every right to share. That said, the 'weight' of his opinion..and the 'recommendations' that arise from it... should be judged in relationship to the value of how the opinion was formed.

When seeking guidance/insight, a novice diver should be aware that any opinion may be hypothetical or factual (of varying accuracy). It helps if people categorized their opinions in such a way, but where that doesn't happen, the viewer should be mindful to apply their own assessment of validity.

 

[beester]

DevonDiver... what you say is very true. If you state your sources (be it personnel experience, training, internet sources or forum consensus) you make it easier for other people to value your recommendation.

In my post I did state that experienced divers are not infalable, experience is also very relative. As stated by JM it's a live long learning experience... the more you do it the more you realise how much is grey area and how much you can still learn.

What I do feel however is that newer divers will often take an opinion or statement as fact, certainly if it comes from a reputable source. They might even voice their or someone elses opinion as fact. However as you know better than me... very few things in diving are fact. Maybe this is an over-generalisation of me, but this could be potentially dangerous.

I'll put it in the extreme... A diver who has never been deeper than 40 feet starts explaining the effects of nitrogen narcosis, and the negatives of deep air. He's making a valid point that is supported by the consensus of the majority. However his statement has in my opinion less value even if it's true because he cannot draw from personnal experience. Do you need to re-live every mistake ever made to experience it... of course not.. you won't see me dive a mix to a ppO² to > 1.4 just to experience a CNS hit. But there is value in specific experience. If someone with no penetration/wreck diving experience starts to repost a procedure that you teach in a subic bay wreck penetration class... regarding lost budy/lost line... the procedure might be valid but next time this guy will start tweaking your procedure without any actual background or experience. On a board this will probably be noticed and corrected but in real life it might not.

 

[Kern]

I think some should go back & re-read Matts OP. He's not telling anyone how to dive, he's talking about his personal experience, & the conclusions he reached about doing dive courses. Seems a pretty valid sort of thing for anyone to post, after all, how many OW/AOW etc. courses have even the most experienced divers done.

 

[Dan G]

People will tell you that you should get certified in the states through a formal course, then go to the Caribbean. They tell you not to get certified in the Caribbean, "Because they just want to get you in and out as quickly as possible". They say you'll have much greater skill as a scuba diver doing it in the states first.

Well, I did it both ways, and I don't agree. As long as you get certified at a reputable resort with dedicated and thorough instructors, you'll learn just fine there. And you'll have more fun, because generally speaking the people in a resort are nicer. They know you're there to have a good time, and they make sure that the learning experience is an enjoyable one.

The classroom portion can be done on-line or in a classroom. I recommend doing both. It costs a bit more that way, but there are things you can't get through the computer. I don't recommend doing just the classroom, though, because the PADI online course is so good. It's very thorough. And it's fun.

So my recommendation is: Contact a resort of your choosing, book a vacation to include an open water certification course. Then do the PADI online course before you go.

I think some should go back & re-read Matts OP. He's not telling anyone how to dive, he's talking about his personal experience, & the conclusions he reached about doing dive courses. Seems a pretty valid sort of thing for anyone to post, after all, how many OW/AOW etc. courses have even the most experienced divers done.

Kern, I have to disagree with you there. If Matt had been simply relating his experience for others to learn from, he would have phrased many of these sentences differently. He is explaining to us what we will experience and what we should expect. On the other hand, if Matt had written, I found the instructors at the resort to be more friendly. I felt as if they knew I was there to have a good time and I found the experience more enjoyable than with my LDS... Then I would agree with you that the OP is simply sharing his experience, and that would be a great thread for all of us to learn from.

This isn't just semantics. My experience, as an teacher who has also spent a considerable amount of time training other already licensed teachers, has taught me that when I speak about my own experiences in working to become a more effective teacher, other teachers are much more receptive hearing me and learning from me. :grouphug: When I say things such as, "You need to do X" or "You should think about Y." I am much less likely to get the results I desire. In fact, I am likely to get significant push back.

 

[TSandM]

I think what we can all probably take from this thread, and especially from the original post, are several things -- all of which are true in MY diving educational experience, as they seem to be true in Matt's.

One is that personalities matter. If the instructor's style doesn't work for you, then the class isn't fun, and we do this for fun. Different styles are going to work for different people; I know folks who absolutely worship the ground an instructor walks on, and I wouldn't take a class from that instructor if it were free. Matt loved the happy, relaxed atmosphere at the resort (and probably would have loved a happy, relaxed atmosphere at home, too). I loved my Cave 1 class in Mexico, which was anything but happy and relaxed -- but the disciplined, methodical and detailed instruction and corrections totally fit my personality.

This second note is my personal opinion, which is that the second time through something is always easier. There is so much stress inherent in dealing with the unknown -- sometimes it isn't getting the job done that's the whole problem, but getting the job done through the anxiety of trying it for the first time. I know, with the classes I have retaken, that the second time I almost wonder why the first time was so hard. Matt's resort instructors had the advantage of the time that Matt's home instructors put into his class, even though that class didn't end up completely successful. For this reason, I don't think any of us can ever make a really objective evaluation of two different classes (unless the second one was, possibly, worse ).

 

[Kern]

Well Dan, I think Matts 1st para qualifies the rest of what he says. In fact I'v heard it a million times in Oz, but of course it go's like this, "you should get certified in Oz, don't do it on vacation in SE Asia, Pacific Is., they're just sausage factories where you buy a certification".

You may be right about the way he has couched the language. But he's not an teacher in a formal setting, he's a poster on an internet discussion board. However, I still think a relatively new diver can have as valid an opinion on training courses as an experienced diver. For e.g., I'm a reasonably experienced diver, but I'v only done 2 recreational courses with pro recreational dive trainers, so there are many newer divers who have more experience with such courses than I do.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I don't think any instructor is going to verbally hit all the important points, but I could be wrong. On the other hand, the classroom involves reading a book also, and that would be comprehensive, wouldn't it?

I cover way more than what's in the book ... particularly when discussing a subject about which you have no prior experience to put it into context. Scuba diving, to someone who has never done it, is such a subject.

eLearning is fine for people who have the aptitude for that sort of learning, but without the ability to ask questions or to have the topic under discussion ... particularly the decompression and diving physicis parts ... explained in a bit more detail, many people will be able to pass the test just fine by parroting what they read without really comprehending why it matters.

That's not my idea of learning ... and it can lead to poor decision-making, even in benign tropical locations.

There's a big difference between reading something and understanding it ...

On the other hand, learning the in-water portion over several weekends allowed me to absorb the teaching, and allowed my body to get used to the idea of breathing underwater. If I'd been in the open water on day 2, it probably would not have been as good.

There is no "one size fits all" approach that would work best for everyone. Some people learn best by reading, asking lots of questions, and mentally processing the information before doing anything physical. Others learn best by grasping just the fundamental concepts and then doing ... allowing their mind to process the information as their body places it into context through physically doing what it is they're trying to learn. And there are endless variations in between. A good instructor has the ability to gauge what and how well their students learn through a given approach, and modify their curriculum to best serve the needs of that student. It is often the case that I will modify my approach to a given part of the curriculum ... whether it is how to describe a particular topic in the classroom or how to present the mechanics of a skill I'm trying to teach in the pool ... based on how well I perceive the student is receiving the information and applying it to what it is I'm trying to get them to do.

I guess what would be best is a resort (read "nice") instructor back in the states.

While it is important to make sure your students are having fun while learning, it's also important to make sure that they achieve the objectives of the class in a way that develops both their skills and confidence. I can be a drill sargeant or a kindergarten teacher ... or many things in between. Which approach I take for a given student depends as much on their goals and learning style as it does the curriculum and objectives of the class.

It really depends on the student, Matt ... for example, based on reading your posts I would probably need to take a very different approach to teaching you than I would someone like TSandM, who is a very analytical and self-critical person.

This is also why some instructors can be completely right for some students, and completely wrong for others ... because there needs to be a compatibility between teaching style and learning style, and that's going to be different for each of us.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

---------- Post added at 05:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:22 AM ----------

Ask your instructors questions on how and what you will learn before signing up for the class and then compare it to other instructors.....that's right...interview them!

I highly recommend this. Up in the New Diver's forum there's a sticky from Walter on how to select a good instructor. I highly recommend it for anyone considering a diving class.

The other thing is that I encourage my students to ask a lot of questions during class. I particularly like questions that start with the word "why" ... because it indicates to me that the student is thinking about the topic and trying to place it into a context that helps them really understand why it matters. Everything you learn in scuba diving should be explained in a way that makes sense to you. If you don't understand why it matters, then you didn't truly learn it.

Then dive as much as possible and network with as many divers as you can.....You can never learn enough and no one way is the "right way". Everyone has to find the way that is right for THEM.

Very true. I will add that any scuba diving class ... even the best ones ... don't really teach you the skills you went there to learn. They teach you how to learn those skills. The real learning comes in the water ... by applying them over and over. A skill isn't really learned until you can do it with little to no conscious thought. This won't happen in four dives ... or six ... or ten. The more you practice them ... the more they become ingrained into automatic responses that your body just "knows" how to do ... the better you've learned them.

The real value of a class is to train you how to learn them properly ... so you don't have to go back later and undo bad habits that may serve you now but will inhibit you from progressing ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)