Can people really get scuba certified without knowing how to swim?

[Tigerman]

I never completed a swimming test for my OW or any other course..

Then again, the first thing I did when we got to the pool (in the middle of summer) was jump into it and have a swim to cool down before starting to mess about with tanks and stuff.. Airdrying for the win!

 

[DevonDiver]

Andy, check out HSA Non-Members
It depends on the agency. A quadriplegic will NOT be swimming on their own.

Agreed. But this thread was started on the basis of discussing the PADI swim test. I was merely referencing PADI's outlook. To date, PADI doesn't have any formal disabled diving program.

To attempt instruction to disabled people will, in many circumstances, require instructor training that far exceeds the minimum provisions given to PADI instructors on an IDC.

Likewise, a scuba certification awarded to a handicapped person, would requires special stipulations that are not covered by the auspices of a standard 'Open Water Diver' certification. Specifically, the need to dive with a suitably educated/trained assistant; thereby ensuring that divers' safety through effective support for their disability. In short, they wouldn't necessarily be 'qualified' to turn up alone at a dive charter, get paired with an insta-buddy and jump in for a dive without supervision - which is what the OW certification provides.

PADI does have the 'Junior' diver certification levels, and these give examples of special stipulations attached to courses/certifications. It wouldn't be hard to create similar provisions for the handicapped, but PADI have chosen not to address that (yet). I guess it's a matter of demand, but it wouldn't be hard for PADI to formulate some reasonable stipulations (in consultation with specialist handicapped diver agencies/advisors) along with a syllabus/certification for those who might choose to act as 'underwater carers/assistants' for those handicapped divers.

is it reasonable for an instructor to require the butterfly for the swim?

Not sure about "reasonable", but it would be a breach of standards for them to require that. There is no formal requirement for either stroke, technique or timing in this exercise.

As far as I've ever gleaned, the exercise is nothing more than an assessment to ensure that the diver has a reasonable level of competence to survive, unassisted, in the water for a limited amount of time... and cover distance if necessary. The perfect example would be 'falling off a dive boat'... Could the diver keep themselves alive for 10 minutes until the boat returned for pick-up? Could the diver swim a reasonable distance to reach the boat etc, without drowning?

I'm not sure about civilian examples, but when I was in the military, we had to complete swimming assessments as a prerequisite for any water-based training/activities that I completed. Again, these were to ensure survival in contingencies, rather than to determine performance. I did swim assessments for canoeing training, sailing training and as part of basic-advanced military training.

The fact that swim/watermanship assessments provide the instructor with information about the student's general water comfort/panic threshold is a secondary benefit, that doesn't actually form part of the stated goals for the exercise.

Seems to me a reasonable option (and one most PADI instructor's I've heard of use) is "student's choice as long as you can finish the distance" because the idea is whether or not you can swim to/from a dive site and or dive boat on the surface, right?

That's precisely why I don't prefer the m/f/s option. I can't guarantee that the diver would be equipped with m/f/s should they ever be demanded to survive in the water.

This isn't a survival swim, it's a "real life distances" type swim that you might encounter getting to a boat on pick-up or swimming out to and in from a shore dive.

I disagree. In reality, where do you think the requirement stems from? Liability maybe? Of course, that isn't to say it isn't prudent also.

Then what is the "proper" method of doing the exercise? I haven't looked recently in my manual but I don't remember anything in the student manual about expectations for the float or the treading water exercises.

Not drown for 10 minutes. Survival. Without requiring assistance or support of any manner (including touching/grabbing the bottom/sides of the test area).

Here's the exact instructions:

PADI Instructor Manual 2011
Watermanship
Before Open Water Dive 2, have student divers demonstrate that they can comfortably maintain themselves in water too deep in which to stand by completing a 10-minute swim/ float without using any swim aids.


At some point before certifi cation, have students complete a 200 metre/yard continuous surface swim or a 300 metre/ yard swim with mask, fins and snorkel.


If conditions warrant, students may wear an exposure suit as long as they are weighted for neutral buoyancy.

PADI Course Director Manual 2010

For the Watermanship Assessment, student divers must demonstrate that they can comfortably maintain themselves in water too deep in
which to stand.


a. Because the 10-minute swim/float must be completed prior to Open Water Dive 2, you should include it as part of the first
few confined water sessions. Consider it an opportunity to teach student divers survival floating techniques or different methods
for treading water. By talking with student divers throughout the exercise, the time will pass quickly.


b. You may complete the 200 metre/yard continuous surface swim or a 300 metre/yard swim with mask, snorkel and fins during
the same confined water dive as the 10-minute float, or during a later dive. Conducting it early allows divers to evaluate their own
comfort and fitness levels. Conducting it later in the course gives student divers a feel for how comfortable they have become in the
water.


c. If conditions warrant, divers may wear exposure suits as long as they are weighted for neutral buoyancy.

 

[Colliam7]

b. IF someone falls off a pier, or falls off a boat, the most important thing is for them to stay afloat -- not swim. Hey, if you've fallen off of something, doesn't that mean you are close to it?

LOL. Well said!

c. As an instructor, I've made the decision that NONE of my students will do the 200 yard "swim" because it TEACHES THEM NOTHING and tells me very little. OTOH, having them do the 300 yard, MFS "swim" (or whatever you want to call it) as a buddy team, teaches them a lot and tells me something about their ability to be a diver.

Peter, just as I found Walter's comment (which may seem to be a bit at odds with your approach) enlightening, I am also intrigued by yours. I have not been looking at the Watermanship Skills as a teaching opportunity, rather as a safety check at the beginning of OW training, and I may be missing a chance both to facilitate student learning, and to assess student ability. Can you elaborate a little more on how you use the MFS?

 

[boulderjohn]

LOL. Well said!Peter, just as I found Walter's comment (which may seem to be a bit at odds with your approach) enlightening, I am also intrigued by yours. I have not been looking at the Watermanship Skills as a teaching opportunity, rather as a safety check at the beginning of OW training, and I may be missing a chance both to facilitate student learning, and to assess student ability. Can you elaborate a little more on how you use the MFS?

I have played with the idea a few times after hearing a course director suggest it. In his own instruction this course director had started requiring the MFS swim. So far I have only done it a few times. In meeting with students before the first session, I ask about their experiences. When I heard people say that they had no snorkel experience (which isn't often), I have had them do the MFS swim. They start out looking not all that good. They have some trouble with the breathing especially, but by the end of the swim, they are doing just fine. In addition, when I see poor finning technique, I step in to correct it as best I can then. As I said earlier, I have never had a student fail the standard swim test, so I figured that if I have to use up good and expensive pool time with this, it might be better if the student gets something out of it.

 

[Peter Guy]

Since this thread seems to have gone off the track a bit and now is an I-to-I thread, I'll respond to Colliam7's request

Can you elaborate a little more on how you use the MFS?

With the 2010 change in when "skin diving" could be introduced in the PADI OW program, I decided I'd go "back to the future" and start my confined water sessions with the skin diving module (actually starting with the 10 minute float to see IF the students are, in fact, comfortable in the water). By starting with skin diving, I have gotten away from the "Dive Now" concept and replaced it with "comfort now and forever" concept.

So, after the 10 minute float, they are introduced to the snorkel, no mask. Can they breathe through the snorkel? Of course they can. Then face is put into the water and they are asked to breathe through the snorkel. Can they breathe through the snorkel while their face is in the water? Maybe 90% can -- 10% can't because they are "nose breathers." Those students immediately get peeled off for special treatment to learn to breathe in and out through the mouth.

The remaining students then put their masks on and learn to flood/clear their mask while breathing through a snorkel. (This is all done very shallow while standing.) Finally they get fins and demonstrate a slow full leg flutter.

Now they are paired up and then do their 300 yard MFS swim WITH THEIR BUDDY. As John wrote, this gives me a chance to look at their comfort with face in the water breathing through a snorkel; look at their kicks (and correct while they are "swimming"); and make sure they stay in contact with their buddy (no racing ahead -- stay with/turn with/COUNT LAPS WITH their buddy).

I may, or may not, complete the skin diving module in this session (that is, the surface dive stuff). As with so much of teaching, it depends on the flow of the class.

Then the Scuba unit is introduced and off to Module One if there is time -- otherwise, just let them float around and blow bubbles until the 90 minute pool session is completed.

By doing it this way, I can pretty easily determine those who will have issues with their mask. They are introduced to flooding/clearing their snorkel. They are introduced to "buddiness." They typically find they need to clear their mask while doing the 300 yard "swim" and learn that it is trivial.

Introducing the "scuba skills" after they've already done these is a snap.

 

[emoreira]

i had two students come in for openwater course
that didn't want their faces to "get wet", much less know how to swim!!!!
could not dunk heads enough to get under the lane bouys in shallow water
"but we want to scuba with our bf's!!!!"

swim lessons,then we'll see about the scuba stuff......
....i think you should at the very least.....
LIKE WATER!!!!

..."but jiiiiiiimmy.how are we eeeeever goin' to do dis????"

ymca?
have fun
yaeg

If the students do not want their faces to get wet, two choices :
1) Full-suit + Helmet
2) US Navy nuclear sub

 

[oldogre]

My swim test was similar Peter,s, (snorkel), but off the beach with buddy.

 

[scubadada]

I disagree with the its BS statement. Though I now know how to swim I would not know how had I have not been certified. I never really learned to swim until I went to Divemaster. The statement in my own opinion would be better stated as "Any diver who cant swim and has no desire to learn is BS." Again I only know how to swim thanks in large to my extreme love of Diving.

I don't think we have any basic disagreement here. I'm all for people improving their skills. Regardless, I have no particular interest in diving with a buddy who can't swim, competantly.

 

[scubadada]

Interesting...how do you judge competency when somebody was qualified in far far away land and/or years voir meme decade(s) ago? You cannot until you end up in the water with said individual. Considering that the majority of divers out there seem to be coming, more and more, straight out from the Mc Diver's production line with the vast majority of them just happening to also be very sporadic warm water exotic locations only type of divers it is pretty darn hard, just by looking at individuals (granted some will make it easier than others) to judge their level of competency. In most cases, this will only become very obvious when you hit the water or the **** hits the fans.

Until you do that, all you are doing is judging a book by its cover. Based on my life experience, those who are inexperienced or readily admit having deficiencies have very rarely put me in akward situations because by them being upfront about it allowed me to risk manage as a supervisor or to act consequently. I wish I could say the same for the self proclaimed expert individuals I have run into but sadly I can't.

Sorry, I don't get your point. We're talking about swimming and water skills. Of course, these need be adjusted for water condintions including cold water. A competent diver in prevailing conditions is a competant diver.

 

[scubadada]

Not that it matters or that anyone writing on this thread cares, but it seems to me that a lot of this "discussion" really revolves around definitions -- "What does it mean to 'be able to swim.'" "What does it mean to be 'comfortable in the water.'"

I, for one, really don't know the answers to those two questions and from reading the responses, I'm not certain anyone else does either for each person seems to have his own idea as to what is "swimming" and what is "comfort."

For the record:

a. My step-mother is a very poor swimmer but she can "swim" (i.e., move through the water). She was, however, a very accomplished scuba diver (Back In The Day when Thal says that training made sense).

b. IF someone falls off a pier, or falls off a boat, the most important thing is for them to stay afloat -- not swim. Hey, if you've fallen off of something, doesn't that mean you are close to it? And if you can float for 10 minutes, what more, really, is needed?

c. As an instructor, I've made the decision that NONE of my students will do the 200 yard "swim" because it TEACHES THEM NOTHING and tells me very little. OTOH, having them do the 300 yard, MFS "swim" (or whatever you want to call it) as a buddy team, teaches them a lot and tells me something about their ability to be a diver.

d. I don't think I'm a very good swimmer although I've been in and around water all my life (my father was a national class swimmer in the 30's and 40's). While perhaps not a very good swimmer (by my standards), I was still able to out swim a much younger, former combat diver during our Fundies swim test.

Swimming is swimming -- diving is diving -- comfort in the water is comfort in the water -- being safe in the water is being safe in the water. There is overlap amongst all of these, but they are NOT the same!

Hi Peter,

I respect your opinion. However, I don't care what your mother in law did as I have no idea under what conditions she dived or whether she was ever challenged to save herself or others. I was certifieid in 1970, the requirements were consideralbly more rigorous, at least for me, than they are today. Falling off the boat has little to nothing to do with a challenging circumstance while diving. The MFS swim can be done by nonswimmers in a pool or similar circumstances with little relevance to diving. I'm dismayed that you, as not a very good swimmer, could best a combat diver, obviously, the details are important. You're correct, swimming is swimming.... I'll take my chances with a reasonable swimmer, comfortable in the water, with good diving skills. Maybe we don't really have significant differences in our opinions.