Can people really get scuba certified without knowing how to swim?

[TMHeimer]

That would be an incorrect interpretation. Student's don't get to dictate the conduct of training - that's the responsibility of the instructor.


I stand corrected. The standards do pretty much say (or imply) that the instructor, not the student determines whether a 200 mtr. or 300 mtr. m/f/s/ swim is to be done. I would still submit that it should probably be one or the other. The swim (although no specific stroke is required) is WAY harder unless you are in reasonable swimming shape, and have some sort of reasonable form. Swimming is a true sport. Whereas the mfs swim is a piece of cake for almost anyone and simply an exercise in leg strength. It's surface snorkelling.... But you're right, it is the way it is.

 

[k ellis]

I don't think we have any basic disagreement here. I'm all for people improving their skills. Regardless, I have no particular interest in diving with a buddy who can't swim, competantly.

Thats better stated From what I interpreted at first I thought you were saying those who cant swim should not be certified. Me personally I dont care if my buddy can swim or not as I always have back up plans in place. Typically I have shore support and usually they can swim. If I am out to sea then I am on a boat and most often there are more divers who can.

Outside of this conversation I ill say though I took 6 years of swimming lessons and never learned to go without touching. Now because I wanted my dive master so badly I could taste it I can swim. If the standards required one to swim at first I would never have learned to dive and hence never learned to swim.

 

[Peter Guy]

scubadada -- I think you have totally missed my point(s):

a. The woman to whom I referred is my step-mother, not my mother-in-law (a very distinct difference). Guess what, she got her NAUI card in the late 60s or early 70s (can't remember exactly when) and WAS certified under "the old standards." As far as I know, she was never in a position to rescue anyone. The points I had hoped to show with this comment were: 1. Back "then" you didn't necessarily have to be a "strong" swimmer to be a diver; and 2. You don't have to be a "strong" swimmer to be a diver.

b. I didn't say I wasn't a good swimmer, I said I didn't consider myself a good swimmer -- a small, but very important difference because THIS WHOLE THREAD is about perceptions. What I consider a "good swimmer" is probably quite different from what most people consider a "good swimmer." This is probably why I could out swim a much younger former combat swimmer.

I believe it was Dirty Harry who said "A man's got to know his limitations" and that is very applicable to scuba. For me, the important thing is for me, and my buddy, to know "his limitations" be they swimming ability, diving ability, or whatever. As long as the dive I'm doing is within the limitations of all involved, that's all I care about.

 

[RTee]

...but this nonswimmer scuba diver stuff is complete BS.

I'll take my chances with a reasonable swimmer, comfortable in the water, with good diving skills.

That is the difference between you and me. When I pair up with this friend of mine for scuba diving who might fit into the water trasher category, I never feel I am taking chances and the reason is very simple...I know the individual (and you don't), have done numerous dives with him either as a buddy or as part of the group I was diving with (which you have not) and under various diving conditions ranging from warm water and great vis environment such as Cozumel, Cuba, Bahamas (to name a few) to limited vis, dark, current and cold water conditions like we have up here. As a diver, he is comfortable in and underwater, safe, conscientious and effective, knows his limitations, is upfront about them and he is a tremendous scuba diving buddy to anybody he is paired with.

Going back to your last quote, unless you know the person you will be diving with or have heard about him from reliable sources, in all likelihood, you will not have any idea, whatsoever, about how good of a swimmer he is, how comfortable he will be in those very conditions you will be diving in and even less about his diving skills beside what he will have told you...and that is, until you hit the water.

 

[beaverdivers]

My Granddaughter can Dog paddle. Can she learn to dive?

 

[k ellis]

Now to comment on a true story I witnessed here (And posted in another thread) I went to Hawaii once to dive on a wreck called the seatiger. Its on Oahu. As I showed up I went to a small whole in the wall dive shop where it was only slightly bigger then a typical office. As I went in I saw a beautiful young woman who was our dive master and a very polite young male divemaster who would be going out with us. This in turn actually became one of my most memorable dives because of how much the crew went out of the way for us.

As I was getting on the boat it was a typical setting you know where you get step onto the boat and down into the boat. Pretty typical Id say. An older gentleman in his 50s I would say came to the boat walking with a cane. I honestly thought when he put his bag on the boat and you could tell he struggled to step in to the boat he was a crew member. By looking at this guy one would assume he was not there to dive. As we neared the site he was suiting up and well I was becoming intrigued that he was walking with difficulty and then going to dive. As we anchored off to our dive site I recall him having the crew somewhat assist him (And I may add they were an awesome crew with how well they handled this) He then sat down beside the ladder and suited up. He even suited up with what many veteran divers stick their nose up to and he placed the dreaded spare air on his bcd.

Ok now looking at this a reasonable person would think that this guy would not be a veteran diver (Since so many balk at spare airs) and also the fact he was physically challenged. He sat on the back of the boat and I dont recall to what extent the crew helped him and he was away in the water. Now again at first glance the guy had some difficulty walking so what would a normal person assume???

Once he was in the water you would never know he was physically disabled. He was calm on the surface communicated perfectly. Even under the water I could only tell him from the others by his spare air. He even somehow managed to get back on the boat. Can anyone believe that??

My point is here so many of us get so caught up in ourselves and what we expect out of another diver that sometimes we simply forget that a diver who dives diffrently then us or swims diffrently then us. Chooses diffrent dive conditions then us does not make them a more or less qualified diver. It just means we cant look at another diver and sum them up as being unable to perform in a given situation then us. We can only learn that by watching them dive and diving with them.

This dive again was made special because it was so well managed by the entire staff as well as guest divers I fell in love with the whole dive. The lady divemaster wanted to show some divers a lobster in the coral but her light died. So she borrowed mine. Also she made the dive special because she did not cap our time limit. I had well over an hour dive thanks to her.

 

[scubadada]

scubadada -- I think you have totally missed my point(s):

a. The woman to whom I referred is my step-mother, not my mother-in-law (a very distinct difference). Guess what, she got her NAUI card in the late 60s or early 70s (can't remember exactly when) and WAS certified under "the old standards." As far as I know, she was never in a position to rescue anyone. The points I had hoped to show with this comment were: 1. Back "then" you didn't necessarily have to be a "strong" swimmer to be a diver; and 2. You don't have to be a "strong" swimmer to be a diver.

b. I didn't say I wasn't a good swimmer, I said I didn't consider myself a good swimmer -- a small, but very important difference because THIS WHOLE THREAD is about perceptions. What I consider a "good swimmer" is probably quite different from what most people consider a "good swimmer." This is probably why I could out swim a much younger former combat swimmer.

I believe it was Dirty Harry who said "A man's got to know his limitations" and that is very applicable to scuba. For me, the important thing is for me, and my buddy, to know "his limitations" be they swimming ability, diving ability, or whatever. As long as the dive I'm doing is within the limitations of all involved, that's all I care about.

Fair enough.


a) I don't think you can predict when you may need to save yourself or others. To have no leeway is risky, in my opinion.

b) I was quite sure you were underestimating your skills, no reason to be so modest

Knowing one's limitations is important in all of our activites, physical and mental

Best, Craig

 

[Colliam7]

I have played with the idea a few times after hearing a course director suggest it. In his own instruction this course director had started requiring the MFS swim.

I . . . start my confined water sessions with the skin diving module (actually starting with the 10 minute float to see IF the students are, in fact, comfortable in the water). By starting with skin diving, I have gotten away from the "Dive Now" concept and replaced it with "comfort now and forever" concept. So, after the 10 minute float, they are introduced to the snorkel, no mask.

Thanks guys, this is really helpful. ( I am continually amazed at all the things I haven't really thought about!)

I frequently tell students that No Mask breathing and No Mask swimming are possibly the two most daunting skills - not because they are necessarily technically diffiicult, but they bring in an added dimension of self-discipline, especially for nose-breathers (those of us who actually listened to our parents when they scolded us, 'Don't walk around with your mouth hanging open!'). So, one of the things I like in the approach you describe is the snorkel / no mask starting point. Also, the idea of using the swim to evaluate finning techniques (instead of only standing on the deck checking off the laps to be sure they complete the swim) is a good idea.

 

[Rich Keller]

This past year, I came across two certified divers that mentioned they actually do not know how to swim.

Is this actually possible? Isn't this a basic requirement of all agencies?

Am sincerely interested to hear from those that were certified without knowing how to swim and the teaching methods applied.

The only divers I ever meet who could not swim were a pair of underwater welders. The reason for this was that it was far easier to teach a good welder to dive then it was to teach a diver to be a good welder. I think the only basic requirement for sport diver training is that the check clears and your credit card is not maxed out.

 

[soltari675]

When I first got certified, I was a little disappointed. The book stated we had the option of using mask, snorkel, and fins for our test, but when we arrived to begin pool work, the instructor required it done without. I can swim, but I will admit I am often lazy and the idea of snorkling to do it was appealing. Now that I have gotten really into SCUBA, I really could not imagine not knowing how to swim. If nothing else, I've realized I need to do it more often to keep in shape at the very least. I took my rescue course a couple months ago and it kicked my butt! Now, as soon as I get over this chest cold, I will be spending a few days a week at the school pool doing a lot more swimming.