What is the other option for diving doubles beside bp/w

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And why exactly do you think it is just fine for a diver to decide it is just fine for them to skimp on the tools now widely accepted as best for technical diving?

Hi DanV,

Sometimes it's easy to forget that diving doubles does NOT necessarily imply diving tech. Sometimes a diver simply wants to make longer recreational dives to only moderate depths, which diving nitrox readily allows. (I know you know this.)

Safe Diving,

Ronald
 
Hi DanV,

Sometimes it's easy to forget that diving doubles does NOT necessarily imply diving tech. Sometimes a diver simply wants to make longer recreational dives to only moderate depths, which diving nitrox readily allows. (I know you know this.)

Safe Diving,

Ronald

Then use a single hp130. Seriously, new BC, 2nd reg, whole new set of skills, blah blah. "Doubles mania" has really gotten out of hand, the cool kids really don't all dive doubles all the time, its a myth.
 
Then use a single hp130. Seriously, new BC, 2nd reg, whole new set of skills, blah blah. "Doubles mania" has really gotten out of hand, the cool kids really don't all dive doubles all the time, its a myth.

Have to agree, I think that (at times) ZKY is cool.

....//.....Maybe it is time to close this thread and open a "how to convince buddy to adopt a new, more flexible, and arguably safer dive system"

Not at all. I find this thread fascinating.

This is just a real-life problem that has to be solved in steps of less-than-perfect changes to existing equipment and mindset. Keep in mind that this is a good opportunity to move your buddy towards increased dive safety.

There has to be a "best" first step in the right direction. I don't see why you can't dive two tanks and a jacket BC with some reasonable measure of safety. Some members on this board dive singles without any form of compensation other than their lungs.

I had two large tanks on a back-inflate vest once, one slung the other on my back. Horrible. Looking to see if somebody solves this, I still dive singles now and again and hate reconfiguring hoses just to take advantage of an opportunity of the moment.

I dive BP/W and up til just recently, slung a 40 when I needed to. Took a class recently that required lots of gas, I got re-rigged to side mount an 80 without changing my back mount doubles. Side mounting an 80 turned out to be much more comfortable and streamlined than slinging a 40! We can all learn.
 
Probably true. I am sure by your definition I really suck as a buddy since I rarely hook up an octopus or a backup regulator for recreational dives. I consider the inability to buddy-breath a good litmus test. Anybody who has a coronary from looking at my rig on deck is not someone I want to be in the water with.

I have lent an octopus in two OOG (Out Of Gas) situations. We were working the exterior of a wreck. That hose could have been 24" with length to spare. He grabbed my harness and we were close enough to waltz as we moved toward sunshine. I really don’t want some guy hanging off my first stage 7’ away unless it is a penetration dive… not on MY dive anyway. :wink:
Good buddy isn't determined by your equipment ... it's determined by your attitude. As a prospective buddy, I can be pretty flexible about people's gear choices, as long as I'm compatible with the reasons why they chose them.

Also, good buddy is a two-way situation ... compatibility is really the key ... which is exactly what I meant by "our" dive. If it's all about you, then doesn't much matter what choices you're making, you should probably be diving solo ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
Then use a single hp130.

Rjack,

I agree, the single HP 130 can be a satisfactory option. However, double Al 80's (or double old-school steel 72's) possess physical characteristics that might make these a better option than the single HP 130, depending. All things are seldom equal, don't you agree?

Safe Diving,

Ronald
 
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Or a lp 120..hot fill it to over 170! It has good bouyancy charicteristics ( way better in summer diving than the hp 100 I got for my drysuit) and much less drag than doubles.
Also, the weight of doubles is a danger to MANY people....it puts a large load on your hips and back and knees that few have trained for--meaining if you are not a big person or one who routinely walks around with this much weight on, walking around with doubles is begging for problems....It is one thing if you really NEED to, and quite another to adopt this just because it appears cool for some future dive...If the "average" diver were going to start diving doubles, they should probably be walking a little more each week in doubles for months before getting up to even going 30 feet....tendons and muscle development will be slow to adapt, and doing this before your tendons are ready can create permanent damage. The shuttling to and from the car, the getting these on the boat, the walking along the boat in high seas...there is a lot of tendon stress and spinal compression for most people new to this kind of weight.
Some dives really do require doubles and stages, but I don't get the feeling that this is the case with this OP issue.
 
It is impressive to see how the number of posts have mushroomed over the past 24 hours. And, I can certainly appreciate where many of the posters are coming from with regard to equipment configurations, optimal hose lengths, buddy practices, diver attitude, etc. But, I won't go there, as others are covering those issues quite thoroughly.
All double diver I have seen use bp/w setup. Is this a must? Is there other options out there?
I will add my thoughts, which probably echo several other comments.

1. You have received a number of great suggestions for non-BP based doubles configurations. So, the answer to your original question, 'Is this a must?', is 'No.

2. Diving doubles does not necessarily mean backmount. I can't tell from your original post if that (backmount) is the direction in which you are going. If it is, you might be thinking that it would be preferable to have your buddy in a similar rig (or, I am reading a bit too much into the initial post). But, a sidemout configuration may offer a good alternative. It is NOT necessarily technical diving, although it is possible that having enough gas to put yourself into a deco situation ultimately qualifies it as 'technical'. The beauty of SM is that you can pursue it with a variety of equipment approaches, ranging from using a SM-specific commercial rig such as a Nomad, to simply clipping two bottles with deco/stage rigging to a BCD that has some type of chest and waist D-rings, and going diving. I could clip a couple of 40s or 80s on either side of my Seaquest Pro jacket BCD and dive a sidemount configuration it might not be streamlined, or optimal, but it would work. Dive-aholic, in various posts, has drawn a distinction between sidemount diving and diving a sidemount configuration. The latter is what your buddy would be doing - simple OW diving with two bottles mounted on the sides. I don't mean to minimize the importance of getting training in how to dive such a rig, the potential risks of having enough gas to 'get into trouble', or the conseqences of moving tanks from the back to the sides - take a back-inflate rig into the water without a tank on the back and the taco potential is intersting. Rather, my point is there are a variety of options, with broad ranges of simplexity/complexity, and expense.

One of the nice things about sidemount is that you can configure it in so many ways that your buddy may find a configuration that suits him.

3. With regard to backmount doubles, several posters have mentioned the Transpac. I was really skeptical of the stability of backmounted doubles attached to a Transpac until I had to use a Transpac with my BM 130s a year ago. I found it very stable in the water, and would therefore suggest it as a reasonable option. With a little rigging you can add a buttplate to a Transpac and have a SM rig. I have a Zeagle Ranger and have put doubles on it as well. Of the two I slightly prefer the Transpac with BM doubles, but both work. I would recommned that stabilizing plates be used with either unit. These are not particularly expensive, though.

4. I can appreciate part of what I perceive to be your dive buddy's mindset - go with the minimal equipment necessary for a dive, relax and enjoy the time in the water, don't get hung up with un-needed equipment or stressed out by procedures.
According to him, the DM their group hired as a tour guide had very good in water skill ... best buoyancy & control with only rental reg and jacket BC. The conclusion for him is long hose, bp/w ... (so called the tech setup) are not necessary.
And, he is absolutely right - they are not 'necessary'.
Ever since that, he is trying to do what that DM do, including doing safety stop upright with arms across in front of chest, and a few other "techniques" he picked up.
I have seen any number of Caribbean DMs who dive the way you describe the DM in the Phillipines diving. It works. I do it myself from time to time - go vertical, cross my arms (and my fins), and just hang in the water, or drift along. I enjoy it, and the freedom it offers - I can almost doze off as it is so relaxing. And, I can do it in my BP, or in my jacket BCD, or my Ranger. (And, frankly, I enjoy solo diving because of the freedom it offers as well. I don't have to worry about whether my buddy knows my gear configuration, or I know his. I don't need to worry about a long hose for my buddy, and I know exactly what I have to do in an OOA.)

5. The challenge for you is finding a way to meet your interest in moving into doubles, with your buddy's interest in a minimalist equipment approach, and do it safely. That is not impossible by any means, but I suspect it will require a bit of effort, and evolution.
 
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DiveRite transpac can take doubles. I used one once upon a time. Its floppy, has lots of strap material everywhere too. There are small wing shaped "support plates" which are required to distribute the weight of the doubles on land over a larger area of fabric. Essentially "mini-plates". I used it with double hp80s and hp119s. You don't see that many people using transpacs with doubles on the west coast USA because most folks on this coast have chosen BP/Ws as a superior system for cold water, drysuit diving.

In the Pacific, Transpacs outweigh BP/W by a factor of many to none. With no need for weighting, and a definite need for cushioning, Transpacs are the t-shirt divers choice.

Floppy is not a word I would ever use to describe the Transpac, though. I assume like anything, fit matters.

On the other hand, BP/W while nice for lots of things, fall down in some areas where Transpacs shine. No one ever has to get cut out of Transpacs, but in a Rescue class that's a give for rescuing a BP/W diver, apparently.

That said old fishermen have been diving doubles in Hawaii without anything but straps forever, and despite DCS injuries to their shoulders, they can usually get the webbing off. Then again, they never tighten them up anyway.
 
In the Pacific, Transpacs outweigh BP/W by a factor of many to none. With no need for weighting, and a definite need for cushioning, Transpacs are the t-shirt divers choice.

I would be interested to know what 'statistics' you based this statement on.

The Pacific is 'quite' a big place... certainly big enough for different diving trends to be present. Here in the Philippines, there is a very high proportion of divers who use BP&W for single and double tank diving. ALL of the dive shops here in Manila actively sell BP&W and most (I would estimate 60%+) of the instructors use them.

On the other hand, BP/W while nice for lots of things, fall down in some areas where Transpacs shine. No one ever has to get cut out of Transpacs, but in a Rescue class that's a give for rescuing a BP/W diver, apparently.

I did some training for a SB member visiting the Phils this week. We got his new BP&W set-up properly. For the sake of de-bunking this sort of nonsense myth (only propogated by divers who don't know how to use a BP&W) I demonstrated rescue/de-kit with his BP&W. It took me 20 seconds to get him out of the rig, without cutting anything. He tried it on me (he hasn't yet done a rescue course - so this was his first ever experience of de-kitting a 'casualty') and I was wearing doubles. Again, took him seconds to de-kit me. Both of us were in long-hose and had bungeed necklace AAS.

So, no.... apparently... it is not a given. :wink:
 
I've never understood the concept of cutting someone out of a BP/W. I can slip in and out of mine in about 5 seconds; faster than I could cut myself out.
 
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