An observation about divers

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What may be incompatible is your mentality and those of the people who are giving you attitude. If that proves to be the case, you may want to consider taking your continuing education elsewhere. Narrow-minded people are usually not the best educators.


... Bob (Grateful Diver)



I don't have a lot of dive experience, but I have over 20 years fire department SCBA experience and an awful lot of that training fellow fire fighters. What I have come to realize is that attitude begets attitude and book smarts many times fall short without the experience to back it up. The most difficult persons are those that think they know more than I do before we even start.

When I'm teaching, it's with the expectation of finding at least one method of doing a task that works for the trainee. Until the trainee is proficient in that task, what point is there to additional methods or task loading?

My 2 cents
 
That is one of several reasons I am not actively divemastering or finishing up my instructor certification.

As a DM guide, I see no problem diving in any configuration. As a DM assisting an instructor, I see the point for using the same equipment, just like if I were instructing. I do feel that instructors should be in a similar configuration to students. I also feel that backplate and wing systems with DIN regulators and a long hose configuration (Hogarthian) is the best way to dive in nearly any situation. If I were teaching, I would put all of my students in a setup like that...and I'd only give them cards when they could dive well and safely too...most likely not many people would be getting a card in only one weekend like is becoming popular :) Because not many shops do it that way, it's hard to find a shop where I would be truly happy instructing. Add to that the higher earning potential of other careers and guess what? I'm a DM, but not actively DMing, and I won't pursue an instructor rating anytime too soon.

My certifications went like this: OW, Nitrox, Cavern, Intro, Apprentice, Full Cave, CPR and First Aid and O2 Admin and AED, AOW, Rescue, Divemaster. While interning as a divemaster, I was hovering in great trim in front of students as they performed drills in the pool, such as mask flood and clear. I was gently pushed down onto my knees by the instructor, who told me afterwards that I was to be situated on my knees when students did drills, no hovering allowed.

I do not recommend anyone who is not a great diver get into a position where they will be a role model for future divers. You don't need Fundies before being a DM, but I do feel that DMs need to have a much higher level of competency than OW divers. They also need to know a lot more about diving industry and various types of equipment, so they aren't surprised or confused about gear. At the DM level, you are a diving professional, and need to be and act professional.
 
BTW, I am a DM, and I am also the Borg Queen for having been an outspoken and adamant promoter of DIR-style diving since I discovered it. When I do pool dives with the shop's students (who are in jacket BCs) I dive a jacket with a standard octo setup. For the open water dives (where there are no demonstrations) I dive my own gear. And when Peter does his own, private classes, we start our students in backplates and 40" hoses and bungied backups, and I do the pool work in my usual equipment.

One does have to make some compromises in teaching for a shop. However, neither Peter nor I EVER demonstrates anything on our knees!
 
While interning as a divemaster, I was hovering in great trim in front of students as they performed drills in the pool, such as mask flood and clear. I was gently pushed down onto my knees by the instructor, who told me afterwards that I was to be situated on my knees when students did drills, no hovering allowed.

That was a wierd personal decision for the instructor to make?!

It certainly isn't a PADI rule or standard.

When I teach OW courses, I make a point of demonstrating good buoyancy and control whenever I can. I hover, helicopter turn and back-kick my way around the students... so they can see what I ultimately want them to emulate.

When they're up to it... I get the students to work from neutral buoyancy also.
 
I was not trying to suggest that it was a standard of any agency. Classes through that shop frequently included a mix of agencies, mostly SDI with a few PADI and a few NAUI students, with teaching style formulated to meet standards for all of those agencies as needed. It was a personal call by the instructor, and the instructor is a cave diver and cave instructor as well.


When I was interning, I was in shop rental equipment. As much as I dislike BC's and prefer a hogarthian setup, I had no problem demonstrating proper bouyancy, trim and propulsion techniques in the shop rental equipment.
 
Like Walter I go way back on this board and trust me there were a few really arrogant horses rears in the early days on this board and on occasion we still get a DIR-F’ed diver. One who takes fundies and then thinks the rest of us are dangerous and have no idea how to dive safely. "Stroke" was flying all over the place in those days and more than once I saw divers berated because they were not DIR, myself included.
Like yourself I've seen quite a few folks come through ScubaBoard like flaming meteors, leaving a scorched trail in their wake and a bunch of folks sitting around wondering what the hell just happened.

Not all of them were DIR ... in fact, the majority were distinctly not. Attitude and ego are independent of agency affiliation. And frankly, the most severe flame-wars I've seen surrounding DIR were generally created by people who are adamantly opposed to it.

DIR and team style diving has it's place and where it was designed to be used it is a very good way to dive but many of it's concepts just are not needed in rec diving. Standard gear config being one of them. If you can't look at my gear and within a few seconds understand it well enough to do a 30 ft reef dive safely, I don't want to dive with you at all (nothing personal intended-generic "you" meaning anyone). The gear is safe, 10s of thousands of diver prove that every day. On the other hand, the skills of GUE trained divers (and UTD I assume) are impressive and every diver should aspire to be as good as they are.
Lots of our gear choices are not needed in rec diving. Split fins, air-integrated computers, inline second stages, just about anything you can purchase on the accessory rack ... they're all choices. A DIR equipment configuration is a choice. Many people choose to dive that way not because they believe it's the only way to dive safely ... but because it works for them. The vast majority of them honestly won't care what equipment choices you make ... they just want to go out and dive in a way that's fun and comfortable for them ... which, when you get right down to it, are the same reasons you made the choices you did.

Where we get into massive pissing contests is when we see one person do or say something we don't like and decide to hold it against a whole group of people who may be dressed in similar gear. Nobody likes being held responsible for someone else's bad behavior.

My biggest problem with the general DIR/UTD diver (not all but many) is the idea that because I do not use the same gear or mindset as they do, I am a less skilled or more unsafe of a diver than they are. In my normal gear in a cave I would agree with them but on a simple rec dive, that is BS.
The vast majority of divers I know would agree with that sentiment ... whether or not they happen to have DIR training.

I think if you look objectively, what you find is the negative attitude you are getting may be because of the air of superiority you are projecting, again no insults intended but anyone who displays an "I am better than you" attitude around me will get less than favorable response from me, not saying you do but it's worth considering. I see the same thing with some new DM’s and instructors.
I'm not so sure that's true. I've had people take one look at my gear and make nasty comments for no reason other than that I was wearing a backplate and using a long-hose regulator. What I find is that people with a negative attitude look for reasons to be negative ... and they don't necessarily have to be valid reasons. Some folks just have a personality that causes them to look for the worst in everything. I don't need to be around those kind of people ... whatever their training and skill level happens to be.

Finally, just so you know. I have held a DIR-F card longer than many of the divers on this board have been diving, pass the first time I might add. I am still in awe at the skills of my instructors.
Interesting ... AFAIK, DIR-F has only been a pass/fail class for about six years. Before that it was a workshop.

And thanks for not posting this in the DIR section where this would have been removed, it‘s impossible to bring an alternative viewpoint if it is not allowed .
By the rules of that forum, it's not the place to argue the merits of DIR ... it's a place to go to get DIR responses to questions ... the Solo forum has essentially the same rules, and for the same reasons.

I don't have a lot of dive experience, but I have over 20 years fire department SCBA experience and an awful lot of that training fellow fire fighters. What I have come to realize is that attitude begets attitude and book smarts many times fall short without the experience to back it up. The most difficult persons are those that think they know more than I do before we even start.

When I'm teaching, it's with the expectation of finding at least one method of doing a task that works for the trainee. Until the trainee is proficient in that task, what point is there to additional methods or task loading?

My 2 cents
This is true ... but since you quoted my earlier reply I'll just explain that the reasoning behind the comment you quoted is that people who reject alternative solutions out of hand tend to not put a lot of thought into what they're doing ... they do things the way they do because "that's how it's always been done". If you happen to be someone who learns by rote, that's OK ... but if you're someone who learns by asking a lot of questions that start with the word "Why", then these people will probably leave you feeling like you missed something.

Just as there are multiple ways to dive, there are also multiple ways to learn about diving. Someone may be a very good diver, or a very good instructor, and be completely wrong for you. It depends on how compatible your learning style is with their teaching style. For someone who is "DIR-curious" ... an instructor who dismisses DIR out-of-hand wouldn't tend to be a good fit, because they will either be unable or unwilling to answer your questions about the alternative diving styles.

I personally like to give my students alternatives, explain the reasons behind each alternative, and let them decide which way works best for them. I haven't seen any evidence that doing so makes it any more difficult for them to learn ... and for those who like to "logic" through their comprehension of what they're doing, it helps them make more informed decisions.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
While interning as a divemaster, I was hovering in great trim in front of students as they performed drills in the pool, such as mask flood and clear. I was gently pushed down onto my knees by the instructor, who told me afterwards that I was to be situated on my knees when students did drills, no hovering allowed.

There is absolutely no rational reason for that sort of behavior. When I was a DM I worked with a PADI instructor who had all of his DM's demonstrate skills while hovering. He started his students out on their knees, but by the end of the confined water sessions all of the students were doing skills while hovering. They had the DM's to emulate along the way. It was from that instructor that I learned the technique of progressively bringing students from kneeling to hovering ... so that by the time pool sessions were done, they were comfortable performing skills that way.

It's not an agency thing ... it's an instructor thing ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
In diving, as in life, most prejudice is born of ignorance. When I first heard about DIR I had a fairly adverse reaction to it ("who are these guys to tell me that I am doing it 'wrong'?"). The more you learn about it, and the more you meet people versed in it, the less hostile you become.

I am still not a card-carrying believer (bad metaphor?) in the DIR philosophy, but I am pretty mellow about the whole thing now. The things that they do which I like, I copy. The things which they do which I don't like, I don't.

But one thing you can be pretty sure about: if you meet a proper DIR trained diver - they may be nice or they may be nasty - but regardless of their personality, it is pretty much a lock that they will be an extremely good diver.
 
..................................................................
Interesting ... AFAIK, DIR-F has only been a pass/fail class for about six years. Before that it was a workshop.


.. Bob (Grateful Diver)


Just checked my card, it was issued June 2003. It was one of the early cards as I recall.
 
About 10 - 12 years ago, there were DIR advocates on forums with a "superior than thou" attitude. I've not seen it in many years and I've never seen it from a DIR diver I met diving.

I agree that we rec folks don't really get it bad from the current DIR set, but that hasn't always been the case, at least not online. I mean, you still see this "natural progession" from rec to tech assumption malarky sometimes, but not so much from the divers really doing it, more from "new enthusiasts".

I think in some ways the current DIR divers online are having to sleep in the attitude bed made by their earlier forbears.

But there's a lesson in that, too...
 

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