An observation about divers

[Kingpatzer]

From what I have seen, most of the divers signing up for Fundies with a GUE instructor, are already exceptionally strong divers, and they typically have exceptional bouyancy and trim skills at the inception of class ( compared to most divers). When they complete and pass the Fundies class, they are always at a level they much prefer to be at, than the one they went in with

I am not denying the ability for a good instructor to help a student improve their skills. I just would never assume that a diver I've never met must be unable to perform any particular set of skills based on the fact that they haven't taken a particular course.

That said, given the inexcusably poor attitude of the CD in question, perhaps it is not arrogance on the part of the GUE instructor so much as an attempt to get the CD to shelve his attitude and give the GUE guy a chance to show that he doesn't live down to the DIR reputation.

 

[TSandM]

Kingpatzer, I think that probably, time has shown the GUE instructor that sadly enough, many folks make it to the instructor level with the mainstream agencies without very polished underwater skills. I have a personal friend who was an instructor with around 1500 dives when he took Fundamentals, and got his butt kicked. Fundies is not about any exotic or unknown skills (except, perhaps, the back kick) but it is about simple things done with precision.

As Dan says, a lot of people don't know how to hover two inches off a silty bottom and not disturb it. A lot of folks can't remove and replace a mask while hovering and not lose buoyancy, trim, or awareness of their buddies. A lot of folks can't initiate an air-share without losing depth, or have trouble precisely controlling an ascent while sharing gas.

It's an arrogant-sounding statement that the GUE instructor made, but I suspect it came out of long experience in seeing that it is likely to be true. The good news is that these skills are available to ANYONE who wants to learn them . . . from GUE, or UTD, or a good cavern instructor.

I find it incredibly sad that the dive shop would be so persistently dismissive of the OP's desire to seek some additional education. DIR diving may not be for everyone, but for those of us who find it a good fit, it only leads to stronger diving skills and better buddy behavior, and a whole lot more underwater fun. I don't think anyone should be negative about any educational system that accomplishes that.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

No, you didn't...But you did raise the perfect issue about what a GUE class could offer even to a Course Director for PADI, NAUI or others..as well as many recreational divers with strong diving skills and big experience....

From what I have seen, most of the divers signing up for Fundies with a GUE instructor, are already exceptionally strong divers, and they typically have exceptional bouyancy and trim skills at the inception of class ( compared to most divers). When they complete and pass the Fundies class, they are always at a level they much prefer to be at, than the one they went in with

This was my experience. When I took my first Fundies class I already had over a thousand dives, had just become a NAUI instructor, had been diving with DIR-trained divers for a couple of years, had been told by many of them that I had very good skills, and thought the class wouldn't be that much of a challenge.

Boy was I wrong ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[bleeb]

As Dan says, a lot of people don't know how to hover two inches off a silty bottom and not disturb it. A lot of folks can't remove and replace a mask while hovering and not lose buoyancy, trim, or awareness of their buddies. A lot of folks can't initiate an air-share without losing depth, or have trouble precisely controlling an ascent while sharing gas.

Since this is Basic and a lot of readers may not be as familiar with the details, it might help people get a sense of perspective if someone listed a brief summary of all the standard OW skills with the criteria required to pass a DIR course. (I understand there are Rec and Tech level requirements for the same skills, with the latter requiring more precision to pass.) TSandM touched on some of them above already, with air-shares, mask replacements and ascents, with trim, depth control and situational awareness, but can someone put rough numbers to the accuracy with which these have to be maintained, and are what are some of the other major skills with similar criteria?

 

[fjpatrum]

My problem is I cannot tune them out as I plan to continue my dive education in the more "mainstream" agencies. But the attitude I got from them for doing a DIR course makes it hard for me to sign up future classes with them. Ugh!

My question is why tell them anything? If you're not doing the course with them, what do they need to know for, unless you're using the course as a stepping stone to a more advanced course later with them.

Dive the way you want, with the certs you think will benefit YOU the most. Simple, really.

[Also consider I am a PADI OW diver with 11 dives under my belt ]

 

[TSandM]

One of the lovely things about GUE is that the course content and standards are available for inspection by anyone, on the GUE website. But here are the relevant skills for Fundies, and the last line has the information on buoyancy and trim variation which is acceptable:

2.1.4.9 Required Dive Skills and Drills
1. Demonstrate proficiency in safe diving techniques; this would include pre-dive preparations, inwater
activity, and post-dive assessment.
2. Must be able to swim at least 300 yards/275 meters in under fourteen minutes without stopping.
This test should be conducted in a swimsuit and, where necessary, appropriate thermal protection.
3. Must be able to swim a distance of at least 16 yards/15 meters on a breath hold
4. Demonstrate awareness of team-member location and a concern for safety, responding quickly to
visual cues and dive-partner needs.
5. Efficiently and comfortably demonstrate how to donate gas to an out-of-gas diver.
6. Efficiently and comfortably demonstrate how to donate gas to an out-of-gas diver followed by an
ascent to the surface, utilizing minimum decompression.
7. Comfortably demonstrate at least three propulsion techniques that would be appropriate in delicate
and/or silty environments; students should demonstrate comprehension of the components
necessary for a successful backward kick.
8. Demonstrate a safe and responsible demeanor throughout all training.
9. Demonstrate proficiency in the ability to deploy a surface marker while using a spool.
10. Demonstrate proficiency in underwater communication.
11. Demonstrate basic equipment proficiency and an understanding of the GUE equipment
configuration.
12. Demonstrate dive-rescue techniques, including effective management of an unconscious diver.
Differences between the management of an unconscious diver and a convulsing diver should be
noted.
13. Demonstrate a comfortable demeanor while swimming without a mask, in touch contact.
14. Demonstrate good buoyancy and trim, i.e. approximate reference maximum of 30 degrees off
horizontal while remaining within 5 feet/1.5 meters of a target depth. Frequency of buoyancy
variation and the divers control of their buoyancy and trim are important evaluation criteria.
15. Demonstrate aptitude in the following open-water skills: mask clearing, mask removal and
replacement, regulator removal and exchange, long-hose deployment.
16. Demonstrate safe ascent and descent procedures.
17. Demonstrate proficiency in executing a valve drill.
18. Demonstrate proficiency in four propulsion techniques that would be appropriate in delicate and/or
silty environments; students should also demonstrate competence in the backward kick. *
19. Demonstrate proficiency with a primary light by using it during all skills except SMB
deployment.*
20. Demonstrate efficient deployment and stowage of a reserve light.*
21. Demonstrate an efficient valve drill with double tanks.*
22. Demonstrate good buoyancy and trim, i.e. approximate reference maximum of 20 degrees off
horizontal while remaining within 3 feet/1.0 meters of a target depth. Frequency of buoyancy
variation and the divers control of their buoyancy and trim are important evaluation criteria.*

One should note that the skills and standards marked with an asterisk are relevant to someone aiming at a "technical" pass from the class, which is the requirement for further tech training with the agency. As stated earlier in the standards, the requirements are less stringent for a recreational pass.

 

[Guba]

I have no idea why I'm weighing in on this...I am not DIR or UTD (had to look that last one up), and as far as I know I've never even dived with anyone who was. It never came up in conversation, nor could I tell simply by looking. Oh, I've seen some folks who sure might have been, judging by their gear, but I could not tell that their skills were any more or less advanced that other divers with whom I associate. I also could not tell by any obvious "superiority attitude" that some folks have reported.
Therefore, I have nothing to base any relevant opinion upon concerning that type of training and diving. Since I have not had the training, I can't even comment upon how good, how necessary, how bad, or how significant it would be to my needs in the way I dive. Perhaps it would increase one's comfort level underwater...perhaps it would not. I won't dare to speculate on that matter. What I do know is that for me, personally, I am not drawn to that mode of training or diving. I have different tastes in equipment, procedures, and styles. That's me. However, I certainly respect those who embrace DIR training, for just by reading what others have written (by some for whom I have GREAT respect) I can see that the program has ample merit.
I suppose what I appreciate most is the fact that I have yet to become embroiled in a raging argument of DIR vs. non-DIR philosophy. I'm extremely glad to see that SB can provide a venue for discussion between those of varied opinion without it becoming an all-out flame war. It's the mark of civilized discussion, and THAT is something toward which I will certainly gravitate.

 

[MRadke]

Just for the record, when I told my CD I am going to do DIR essentials concurrently with my mainstream education, he commented "We call DIR as Divers Ignoring Reality". I really feel very disappointed with the whole attitude.

On the other hand, I have spoken to a GUE instructor who says I can get my CD involve in the fundies and literally threw down the gauntlet: If you CD can perform all the skills I demonstrate without my instructions, I will teach the entire group for free.

*shrugs*

Either way, I am excited about starting my essentials and see how it goes after I complete it.

My only question is, why are you playing these two individuals against each other to begin with? It sure seems awfully sophomoric to me. You'd get the same reactions if you started carrying tales back and forth between your wife and your mother in law. This post really has less to do with diving philosophy and more to do with human nature and you trying to pit individuals against each other.

Now if this isn't your intent, simply learn what you can from each instructor and be happy to have people who will work with you.

 

[robbcayman]

If you like DIR, then more power to you. Personally, I love my split fins and computer, which DIR is against. I think everyone has to find what fits their personality and style of diving. The only thing that gets me fired up is when a person says DIR or other way of diving is the only way. Another hobby of mine is hunting and you have the recurve vs compound vs crossbow arguments all the time. Some people just don't get that there is more than one way to do something.

 

[danvolker]

If you like DIR, then more power to you. Personally, I love my split fins and computer, which DIR is against. I think everyone has to find what fits their personality and style of diving. The only thing that gets me fired up is when a person says DIR or other way of diving is the only way. Another hobby of mine is hunting and you have the recurve vs compound vs crossbow arguments all the time. Some people just don't get that there is more than one way to do something.

Rob,this is all in context. For a 60 foot dive in light current on pretty reef, there is no reason you cant use split fins, and few of the DIR crowd would even think of a comment about a computer in such a scenario.
Most of our DIR issues begin to occur when a diver moves into very challenging situations....