An observation about divers

[Kingpatzer]

you have the recurve vs compound vs crossbow arguments all the time.

What's to argue, if you're not using a recurve and doing the other two you're just trying to cheat and aren't really bow hunting . . .

 

[RJP]

(You won't see a bolt snap at the end of my long hose -- there's just no occasion when I would ever clip it off in the kind of diving I do.)

You don't dive on a boat, on the shore, near a parking lot, or anyplace else where a reg on the end of 7' hose will easily end up on dragging on the ground if it's not in your mouth?

 

[robbcayman]

What's to argue, if you're not using a recurve and doing the other two you're just trying to cheat and aren't really bow hunting . . .

Yeah, I've heard that one a few times.

 

[robbcayman]

Rob,this is all in context. For a 60 foot dive in light current on pretty reef, there is no reason you cant use split fins, and few of the DIR crowd would even think of a comment about a computer in such a scenario.
Most of our DIR issues begin to occur when a diver moves into very challenging situations....

If I were to start going into caves then I would likely jump on the DIR bandwagon. I don't mean to say that DIR isn't useful. I just don't do that type of diving, so I should have clarified.

 

[RJP]

22. Demonstrate good buoyancy and trim, i.e. approximate reference maximum of 20 degrees off horizontal while remaining within 3 feet/1.0 meters of a target depth. Frequency of buoyancy variation and the divers control of their buoyancy and trim are important evaluation criteria.*

As written, that would mean you'd be allowed a total of a 6' swing in depth, since +/- 3ft would keep you "within 3 feet of a target depth." (In which case they should improve the precision of their requirements.) Or does it mean +/- 1.5ft? (In which case they need to improve the precision of their writing.)

:cool2:

 

[Thalassamania]

In my mind, Hogarthian denotes a type of minimalist type of equipment configuration. This configuration is used by DIR and UTD (as far as I know) in their diving styles.

Beyond equipment configuration, DIR and UTD have team mentality above and beyond the open water statement of "always dive with a buddy". In DIR and UTD practice, your buddy or your team is really considered part of your necessary dive equipment.

For the record, I am IANTD trained, so what I said may not be exactly correct, but I have gone diving with a few people trained by GUE and this appears to be their mentality.

I think it actually has a lot of advantages but can unfortunately be too easily preached and used to disparage fellow divers. Overall, I think this style of diving is actually a good thing. I used to consider myself a bit of a solo diver, and enjoyed the fact that people weren't trying to communicate with me all the time or tell me what I was doing incorrectly. On the other hand, my communication skills deteriorated and I was able to reinforce bad diving practices.

For me, I know that I don't need a buddy for a 30' dive with no current in clear blue water. But practicing the communication and team building skills will help me when I do have buddies on a 200' dive in heavy current.

The major point, in my mind, has little to do with specific gear choices or skills, it has to do with a holistic approach to team oriented diving, that's what sets the HOG folks apart and raises them to the level of people that I am almost always very happy to dive with.

You certainly can do an IDC in BP/W. However, be aware that you may well have to help the staff re-read the standards for some skills.

And the few examiners I know who do the iEs will almost certainly give you a very hard time because they honestly believe in the virtue of being able to demonstrate the techniques the students will use. And it's pretty hard to demonstrate how to easily remove and replace a vest BCD using a BP/W.

CDs that are that box-of-rock stupid probably should simply be avoided, it is rare that they are re-trainable.

Wow. I am sorry you are getting that attitude. It is a shame that such a small community can generate so much animosity.

Getting more education and skills is never a bad thing! During the training you will have to adhere to the equipment configuration but once you are done, you can use whatever equipment you like. The skills and knowledge will remain.

For a buddy, I don't care if you are in a jacket with a inflator/octo or a full dir rig. A good buddy is not defined by his/her gear (as long as it works!), buy by his/her diving skills.

There are a few things, however that really must be agreed to, donation of the primary, for example.

My problem is I cannot tune them out as I plan to continue my dive education in the more "mainstream" agencies. But the attitude I got from them for doing a DIR course makes it hard for me to sign up future classes with them. Ugh!

Strikes me that that is their loss, not yours.

Randy, my advice would be to hold off on the DM class for a while. Once you do Fundies, you're going to frame diving in a whole different scale of reference, and you'll have plenty to work on.

When I got certified, I did AOW and a bunch of specialties, and I was in love with my new sport. Since I love to teach, teaching diving looked like a fantastic idea, and the shop made it clear that it really didn't take that much to become an instructor (one of my DMs had been diving for eight months total). That's what I was going to do, by golly!

Then I went diving with NW Grateful Diver, and saw a whole new level of skill, unlike anything I had seen from my DMs OR my instructors. And I went to take Fundies, and the instructor there demonstrated another level of competency altogether. And I realized I had no business teaching anyone anything, because I had so much to learn. I dropped my plans for further mainstream training and explored this new world. Fundies, Rec Triox, 5thD-X Rec 2, NAUI Helitrox from AG, GUE Cave 1, UTD Tech 1, GUE Cave 2 . . . And finally, I felt as though I had enough training and enough varied experience in different diving environments to have something REAL to offer students, so I did my DM.

You may feel very much the same.

Spot on, as usual.

Just ask them politely to show you in the standards what the critical skill attributes are, and where gear configurations are specified.

However, you missed the second point of my response: you have to demonstrate to the students how they will be performing the skills.

Unless your students are going to be wearing BP/W setups, it is next to impossible to demonstrate some skills for them. And since one role of the professional DM is precisely to assist instructors in demonstrating skills and working with students who are having difficulties, and since that is why you work on skills as a DM student, having a gear configuration that allows you to effectively demonstrate skills to your students is important.

My personal rig is a BP/W. But when I"m teaching, I put on a vest BCD because that is what the rental gear the students will be using is. And that is what I have to teach them how to use.

Just what skills can one not adequately demo (as long as you deal with your necklace first and wear a snorkel)?

Just for the record, when I told my CD I am going to do DIR essentials concurrently with my mainstream education, he commented "We call DIR as Divers Ignoring Reality". I really feel very disappointed with the whole attitude.

On the other hand, I have spoken to a GUE instructor who says I can get my CD involve in the fundies and literally threw down the gauntlet: If you CD can perform all the skills I demonstrate without my instructions, I will teach the entire group for free.

*shrugs*

Either way, I am excited about starting my essentials and see how it goes after I complete it.

Again, the issue is not one of this skill or that kick or wearing a computer, it is rooted in the base-line acceptance of a holistic approach to team oriented diving (which is what science diving has been about from day one). I have always been disappointed when the discussion becomes reductionist, ignores this, and deteriorates into: "I can do a special kick ... and you can't.

I really am curious as to what the super secret mystery skills are that no one else in the diving world can know without GUE instruction.

It is not a question of a mystery skill, but rather of a proper attitude.

Not secret skills...Just bouyancy and trim and propulsion, taken to the point that they are perfect for the diving situation, WHENEVER THEY NEED TO BE.

This probably sounds unlikley to you--unlikely that there could be any bouyancy or trim issues a 20 year diving veteran might not have mastered. When you see the skills first hand, and see them used in the natural setting they are intended for, this should change your attitude on the issue.

An obvious skill from Fundies is to learn how "not to" silt. While this came from cave diving, we have many uses for this in recreational diving. Getting close to the deck on a shipwreck, to be near a Goliath Grouper, or doing a minor shipwreck penetration ( with picture window size exits all along it) can mean being close to a very silty bottom--if you flutter kick near it, you will destroy the vis....if you need to be close to the bottom, maybe inches from it, there is a perfect way to do this without silting, but it is not a skill most long time divers would be proficient in. Maybe you need to be out of the current and close proximity to the bottom is critical....maybe you are looking for nudibranchs...their are many reasons.

Other skills are more about perfection in boyancy and trim as this will effect a safety or deco stop--where in a team scenario, you would want to maintain face to face connection of all team members the entire time....this means a perfection of each person in hitting and maintaining a set depth, and not having to carreen around all over in an attempt to hold depth ( thus losing eye to eye contact, and ability to watch a buddy's gas switch was performed with the right gas, etc) ... while this is more tech oriented, without the skill, future tech diving is hampered. If you never go to tech, it is still awesome to be able to hold an exact depth and flat trim as if you were being held in place.

Just a few of the skills are demonstrated here ... YouTube - gue-reversekick1

Dan, what you are saying is true, but I know that you know better, you are falling into the reductionist trap. Good divers, be they science divers or recreational divers, GUE, UTD or an RSTC agency, are defined (I think) by attitude that invariably leads them to actually master all the individual skills that you identify (and a whole lot more).

I'm pretty sure I never once suggested that people should not practice and perfect their skills. Nor have I ever thought that every diver spends the time they need to perfect their skills. But I sure don't understand the arrogance of assuming that someone doesn't have those skills unless they've attended a GUE course.

It's like swimming underwater, point your head and the rest follows. When you get your head screwed on straight the techniques that will be needed will flow.

Kingpatzer, I think that probably, time has shown the GUE instructor that sadly enough, many folks make it to the instructor level with the mainstream agencies without very polished underwater skills. I have a personal friend who was an instructor with around 1500 dives when he took Fundamentals, and got his butt kicked. Fundies is not about any exotic or unknown skills (except, perhaps, the back kick) but it is about simple things done with precision.

As Dan says, a lot of people don't know how to hover two inches off a silty bottom and not disturb it. A lot of folks can't remove and replace a mask while hovering and not lose buoyancy, trim, or awareness of their buddies. A lot of folks can't initiate an air-share without losing depth, or have trouble precisely controlling an ascent while sharing gas.

It's an arrogant-sounding statement that the GUE instructor made, but I suspect it came out of long experience in seeing that it is likely to be true. The good news is that these skills are available to ANYONE who wants to learn them . . . from GUE, or UTD, or a good cavern instructor.

I find it incredibly sad that the dive shop would be so persistently dismissive of the OP's desire to seek some additional education. DIR diving may not be for everyone, but for those of us who find it a good fit, it only leads to stronger diving skills and better buddy behavior, and a whole lot more underwater fun. I don't think anyone should be negative about any educational system that accomplishes that.

Arrogant or simply reality based on experience?

If you like DIR, then more power to you. Personally, I love my split fins and computer, which DIR is against. I think everyone has to find what fits their personality and style of diving. The only thing that gets me fired up is when a person says DIR or other way of diving is the only way. Another hobby of mine is hunting and you have the recurve vs compound vs crossbow arguments all the time. Some people just don't get that there is more than one way to do something.

DIR has nothing to do, per se, with the rejection of split fins or computers, it is about attitude toward diving. While you may believe that certain pieces of gear are better than others, DIR, UTD, Science Divers and most experienced divers know that some gear works better than others and that some should simply be standardized for safety and efficiency.

Rob,this is all in context. For a 60 foot dive in light current on pretty reef, there is no reason you cant use split fins, and few of the DIR crowd would even think of a comment about a computer in such a scenario.
Most of our DIR issues begin to occur when a diver moves into very challenging situations....

True, but you dive the way that you train and practice.

 

[diver 85]

OP, everyone's just trying to make a buck-----most people will tell you what they think you want to hear....

 

[TSandM]

Thal, those of us who dive within the system are aware of the reductionist characteristics of hawking specific skills. But it is the desire for the skills that brings the student to training, and it is really only in the context of a group that the desirability of a team approach can become clear. I know, when I took Fundies, I was mostly interested in better buoyancy and propulsion, and I was not in any way a "convert". But what I came out of the class with, more than ANYTHING else, was the first glimmerings of an understanding of what teamwork could be when diving, and how a uniform system worked to make things smoother, easier, and possibly even safer. Kicks got me in, but team carried me forward, and team is what keeps me doing what I'm doing.

Yes, it is possible for a pair or trio who dive regularly together to build that kind of teamwork, if they have the skills . . . but being part of the DIR world means I get that the minute I get in the water with someone with similar training. I had that LOVELY experience in LA last weekend -- a true, honest-to-God instabuddy, someone I had never met or even HEARD of before the dive. And it was like diving with an old friend. Man, is that worth a lot! Imagine traveling to places you've never been before, and slotting into a dive team like you'd always been there. Imagine going somewhere and only having to take the dive gear that's fit-critical, because you can borrow everything else and it's JUST LIKE YOURS. Imagine the ease of pre-dive preparation, when everybody knows exactly what needs to be covered and what needs to be done, and does it the same way. Imagine cruising a 100 foot square silt-covered dive site with eight buddy teams for an hour (we were doing a formal search for a lost item) and leaving the viz precisely as we found it.

There are SO many nice things about the system. Yeah, you give up a little "personal choice", and yes, it takes work to bring your skills to standards. But the payback is worth it.

 

[bkotheimer]

You won't see a bolt snap at the end of my long hose -- there's just no occasion when I would ever clip it off in the kind of diving I do.

You don't dive on a boat, on the shore, near a parking lot, or anyplace else where a reg on the end of 7' hose will easily end up on dragging on the ground if it's not in your mouth?

Yeah, in my case it's 5', but yeah of course I do. And I did use the bolt snap for a while. Then I realized I was diving with a bolt snap flopping around on my primary hose JUST so I could have it to clip off to a d-ring when I'm NOT diving. And that seemed pretty silly, like that wheeled dolly thing I saw at DEMA that attaches to your tank for easy transport but -- rather than being removed at the dock/beach -- actually folds up and goes for a dive with you so you're diving around with a set of wheels hanging off your tank.

So I tried an o-ring on the hose with an extra double-ender standing by on the d-ring. But that seemed a waste of a double-ender. So now I use one of those little flat rubber snorkel/octo keepers on a d-ring and stick the primary in that. I mean, for me, it's just for the boat. And parking lots, beaches, etc., as you mentioned.

Wow, RJP, I really thought I'd gotten away with that comment, hidden days ago in what has turned into a really long philosophical discussion.

 

[mdb]

This tired argument seems to go on and on-with different headings of course.

A well trained diver is just that. No need to put labels or ascribe any method as "The way". The instructor, just like in HS or University, is the most important element.

All hail to the good dive instructors. They need not be any brand or flavor.