Denied Air Fill Due to Not Safe Air Cert

[muddiver]

Who mentioned "sticker of any kind?" I said a BIG nitrox sticker and implying MY bottle.
If I'm at a resort, I'm probably using rental tanks which means I could give a sh!t what kind of stickers they have on it.

Your rant implys that your are adverse to stickers on cylinders. Even if for safety purposes. This is a common statement on SB. Sorry if I misunderstood.

No one is arguing against clean gear, are they? Who's doing that?

Thal tossed out "just fill from banked 32%" This implys that cleaning your cylinder and valve is unnecessary because it is safe if you fill from a pre-mixed source.

I'm not putting those BIG nitrox stickers on MY tanks.

If you don't want to abide by the industry standard for safety, no one is going to stop you. There is no regulation or law aginst it.

 

[Thalassamania]

THAT is a very interesting question! Not such a big deal with banked 32 but a really big deal for PP blenders.

Richard

No doubt, with PP blending the valve and cylinder see 100% and must be properly prepared and maintained for pure oxygen service.

Damn, all the focus is on the tank which is the least of the HP O2 issue. It's the valve that is of most concern, not that damn tank.

If the valve is where heating will occur and it the biggest concern with HP O2. The tank is of secondary to little concern to me.

A dive shop wants to charge money to light up the inside of the tank with UV which will show them squat.. and probably ignore the most important part, the VALVE. RUN AWAY!

Frankly, if a shop requires me to have a big nitrox sticker then that shop does not get my money. (side rant )

Good point about the valve, and yes ... I'd leave that shop, either they don't know any better or they're ripping me off and I want no part of either. As far as "wraps" are concerned, proper labeling and identification of breathing media is important and needs to be considered. Frankly, when I'm getting a fill at a shop that has a single system to pump air and EAN, I analyze, even if I just ordered air.

If you walk into an ANDI shop and they start spouting "SafeAir" they are really talking about ultra pure Grade E breathing air, oxygen cleaned cylinders and oxygen built/clean valves and regulators.

Yes, it is overkill for the mainstream recreational scuba industry. Is it overkill for the technical/trimix espiring scuba diver? Maybe not.

It is not overkill for anything above 40% (well, technically it is overkill since the real "safe" figure is well above 40%), I'd even be happy with a little extra margin and be willing to make the make the break at 32%, since that gives a _ppO₂ of 1.6 at the 130FSW "sports diving limit."

I think it is better to have you equipment rigged, cleaned and upgraded for the most demanding situation you are moving toward. In this case partial pressure Nitrox blending, which is the standard ANDI method of making Nitrox fills.

For sports diving partial pressure Nitrox blending is becoming a thing of the past. For more demanding diving partial pressure is a necessity and requires oxygen service cleaning.

Is an oxygen clean cylinder and valve necessary for a Nitrox fill off a banked (i.e. pre-mixed) Nitrox supply? No, it is not necessary.

We agree.

Do ALL scuba shops that offer Nitrox, especially any percentage you might want, use banked mixes, no. Therefore having your gear oxygen cleaned and built with oxygen service parts is a good precationary measure because you might not fill at the same shop every time.

Most do, and I am much more confident getting banked NITOX than relying on shop personnel, who vary from master blenders to tank monkeys for partial pressure blending.

Physics is physics, oxygen under high pressure does weired and some what dangerous stuff. I'm not so sure that arguing aginst clean gear and cylinder content marking is such a good thing when you are dealing with the general public (i.e. mainstream scuba divers). That little peice of duct tape your write the MOD for a cylinder on might be ok for you, but what about the poor smuck resort diver that grabbs a cylinder of mix because it looks just like all the other cylinders laying around, except for that little peice of tape that got stuck to it? Mistakes in diving occur, lets promote procedures to minimize them instead of denouncing everything because it is more expensive.

I believe in good lableing, but what is the WORST thing that going to happen if the "poor schmuck resort diver" grabs a tank of 36 and goes out on a dive? If the dive is to less than 100 fsw, it's not an issue, if it's to 130 the diver should be more than a "poor schmuck" and know better; but, in any case, the diver will spike to 1.8 for 10 minutes or less. That's rather unlike to result in oxtox nor does it run run the oxygen clock very far.

...

Thal tossed out "just fill from banked 32%" This implys that cleaning your cylinder and valve is unnecessary because it is safe if you fill from a pre-mixed source.

I hope that's not what I said or implied. Please permit me to restate: If you are filling at 40% or less there is no need for oxygen cleaning or maintaining the tank and valve for oxygen service.

If you don't want to abide by the industry standard for safety, no one is going to stop you. There is no regulation or law aginst it.

What I object to is the use of "industry standards" or "insurance requirements" as a way to keep divers captive to a single supplier or to change them an extra $20 to look in the tank.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

If you don't want to abide by the industry standard for safety, no one is going to stop you. There is no regulation or law aginst it.

There is also nothing "standard" or inherently "safe" about banner wraps. They're just another step in the promotion of diving as "in order to keep you safe we have to treat you like an idiot".

A (very) little bit of education and the presumption that divers have at least the mental capacity of a chimpanzee makes them completely unnecessary ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[NAM001]

Any time I've challenged a shop owner ... including one I used to work for ... so show me that guideline, they have been unable to produce it.

Can you?

Until I see some evidence that NOAA or anyone else specifically states that banner wraps are required ... well, let's just say I'm skeptical of the truth of the claim.

I also don't buy that it could "void" your insurance. If that were the case, all shops would be requiring them. Where I live, only a minority do ... and they are easily avoided.

AFAIK, there is no written requirement by any governing agency requiring banner wraps on scuba cylinders ... if it exists, please produce a verifiable reference to the agency that requires it ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Ill have to look but i thought tanks filled with greater than 40% required the tank wrap. and that reg air, < grade E ,did not ever get put in it. 21-40 tanks do not require a tank wrap and can be used for both nitrox and air. When i got my pair of lp 95s, the shop put on the wrap because they used pp filling which ment over 40% and that required nothing less than grade e air ever to be used. if they filled from banked 32 the tank would not need the wrap.

 

[pwr2al4]

you have 500 dives and your not familiar with this??

 

[CamG]

Sorry everyone hit the wrong key, to much diving this week end!
Not enough Nitrox to much 21% still groggy!

CamG Keep Diving....Keep Training...Keep Learning!

 

[CamG]

Greetings DiveLvr and thanks for the interesting read.
Thank you to all who have spurred such great conversation and information about Nitrox. Much of what has been said is was covered in my Nitrox class back when it was a class with an instructor and check out dives. STOP before I am flamed I am not a anti-e-learning guy, however we learned far more than just agency standards in our class. The difference between the two methods of instruction reflect the personal attention to specific LDS fill methods and requirements.

I was amazed early on at the varying requirements form shop to shop and the unwillingness to consider any blending technique other than P/P blending.
It was even difficult to find banked Nitrox in my local area.
As other poster have mentioned it is well worth your time to educate yourself about the blending methods and hazards of O2 usage.
Ignorance is not an excuse on part of the end user, it is your gas and your axx if you choose to unwisely use Nitrox.

My experience, research, and training has been well worth the effort and revealed the true nature of many of of the SELF imposed LDS regulations. But that is another thread is itself!
Just be informed and choose your fill station accordingly end of story!
Some shops should not even be filling any gas whether air or nitrox because the person doing the fills know less than the diver asking for them!

CamG Keep diving,,,,Keep Training....Keep Learning!

 

[padiscubapro]

I must have missed something... I didn't know ANDI even existed any more. Did someone resurect it after the IANTD debacle?

ANDI has been around without interruption sice '88.. no problems at all.. We do have some coverage issues in certain countries but is going strong in most places we do business.. We also have some of the best coverage for CCRs out there.. Many of the manufacturers come to us first..

 

[padiscubapro]

Any time I've challenged a shop owner ... including one I used to work for ... so show me that guideline, they have been unable to produce it.

Can you?


... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I will have to look at the last hard copy manual I have (I have to dig it up first).. I don't have the current noaa manual so the last revision I have will have to do.. there is a large section that details labeling procedures... Painted was the preferred method at the time with a decal wrap as an acceptable alternative..

 

[padiscubapro]

Padiscubapro,

If one of your customers gets a fill somewhere else do you insist on O2 cleaning their tank again before you will fill with banked 32%?

Most of my customers go out of their way to get gas from me because they know how anal I am about gas purity.. I will usually fill tanks that have been filled by others with a few exceptions.. Most customers are honest and I;ll ask they who filled their cylinders, most of the shops have reasonable gas but there are a few places that if I know the tanks were filled at I will no longer fill it with nitrox..

o2 cleaning is a pain in my butt.. I definately don't do it for the money... doing it the right way takes alot more time than what is charged to do the job..