History of Diver Training

[DCBC]

Guys, I totally understand what you're saying.

But DCBC has been seriously disrupting Scubaboard for months with a long string of highly cynical and highly negative anti-recreational diver/instructor POV warrior moans and it's time he explained himself.

At this point I wonder if he even *can* explain himself. He's been saying so many things and so many of those things don't check out, compare or even appear to be compatible (as indicated in previous posts), that I wonder if his obsessive compulsive *need* to discredit everyone and everything that doesn't meet with his narcissistic approval is even based in reality.

If this were anyone else, I would just make some jokes about it and move on. But DCBC has earned his reputation and has put himself *way* out there with his POV warrior moan and I think it is (a) reasonable and (b) responsible to confront him with it.

I know it doesn't come across as any kind of big group hug but I don't think it should at this point after months of POV warrior moaning. As a point of order, we started in this thread not taking things seriously and even ended up talking about vasectomies but DCBC couldn't let it go (as no addict ever can) and while you might not expect him to back down, you shouldn't blatantly accept his obsessive-compulsive behaviour without expecting a response from someone!

(even if that someone is only the point-man)

I can understand that this thread has totally gone to hell (as most of the POV warrior moans usually do in one way or another) but don't blame me for it.....

If you want to continue with this POV Warrior crap. You can have the thread to yourself. I don't need to be insulted by you or anyone else on this board. If you really want to discuss matters, stop being so abusive and act like the gentleman that I thought you were before this conversation started.

1. You asked me: "Are you a PADI Instructor or not?" "I think you owe people a clear statement of the context from which you're writing." "What are you really? At this point I don't think anyone knows."

In response, I've told you what I am. I asked for your credentials to ascertain the context from which you are writing. You ignore my request. Why is that?

Is it that you tell me what to do and I do it, but the conversation is omni-directional? Do you want a conversation or are you just standing on your soap box to make a point?

2. I don't understand your claims. I've taught recreational diving for 39 years and somehow I'm "anti-recreational diver/instructor?" Where do you get-off in making such unsubstantiated statements?

3. My posts are consistent. Because you can't understand the context in-which my statements have been made from one thread to another over time, only indicates to me that you come to outlandish conclusions before you have all of the information.

For example, I have a card that says I have Emeritus status as a PADI Instructor. From what I understood from PADI when I retired, this means that I'm a non-teaching PADI Instructor for life.

Am I a PADI Instructor? Yes, a retired one. I further explained to you that I taught for PADI for 17 years, but no longer teach through PADI. Your retort? You say you're a PADI Instructor and then you say you aren't.

I've told you my "PADI story" more than once. Perhaps you just can't accept it because the experiences of someone else don't match your own. I don't know. All I can honestly relate is my perspective.

4. If you want this resolved, I suggest that you:

a) Maintain a sense of politeness;
b) Provide your credentials and help me understand your perspective;
c) Make a list of things that you "don't think checks out."

Once received, I will address these and we can move forward.

 

[Scott L]

Once received, I will address these and we can move forward.

Or you could request the thread be closed and the corks will fly...

 

[Diver0001]

Rob ... you're a nice guy. And Pete's a nice guy. And I personally like both of you. But I really think the two of you need to consider calming down a bit.

You're right.

R..

 

[DCBC]

Or you could request the thread be closed and the corks will fly...

That would be fine with me, but as Rob has said, he feels that it's his responsibility to "confront me." It almost amounts to harassment; POV Warrior crap on one thread or another even if it's completely off-topic. Bitterness and innuendo just start to surface. So I'd like to resolve his 'unresolved issues' if possible.

I've found that addressing a problem is better than letting it fester. I'm happy to do this via PM (should he elect to provide the information requested). I actually like Rob, but we both are strong willed. Given my background, I don't back down and I'm sure that's a contributing factor.

I just don't think that it's appriopriate for a member of the staff to be bad mouthing people. Perhaps it's his position that presses on him a responsibility to confront me; I don't know. I do know that I want it resolved and this behaviour stopped.

 

[Scott L]

That would be fine with me, but as Rob has said, he feels that it's his responsibility to "confront me." It almost amounts to harassment; POV Warrior crap on one thread or another even if it's completely off-topic. Bitterness and innuendo just start to surface. So I'd like to resolve his 'unresolved issues' if possible.

I've found that addressing a problem is better than letting it fester. I'm happy to do this via PM (should he elect to provide the information requested). I actually like Rob, but we both are strong willed. Given my background, I don't back down and I'm sure that's a contributing factor.

I just don't think that it's appropriate for a member of the staff to be bad mouthing people. Perhaps it's his position that presses on him a responsibility to confront me; I don't know. I do know that I want it resolved and this behaviour stopped.

All good thoughts. I just hated to see my favorite posters including yourself engage in heated rhetoric possibly resulting in long lasting bad blood. Good luck all!

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

All good thoughts. I just hated to see my favorite posters including yourself engage in heated rhetoric possibly resulting in long lasting bad blood. Good luck all!

There is no need for bad blood ... unless someone is behaving outrageously, they are entitled to express their opinion. If you disagree with it, attack their position ... not their person.

Wayne's views are unpopular with many ... particularly those who teach for PADI. That's understandable ... he tends to paint with a very broad brush. And the repetition of threads restating the same subject get a bit tiresome after a while. Wayne ... maybe it's time to give it a rest ... at least for a time. With your background you've got a lot else to bring to the table. And you've said all that really needs to be said on this topic ... if there's anyone on ScubaBoard who doesn't know where you stand by now, it's because they're avoiding your posts.

On the other hand, just because someone passionately disagrees with what someone else says doesn't give anyone the right to attack their person, or their integrity. Wayne isn't doing that to others, and he doesn't deserve to have others do it to him ... particularly not SB staffers. Not only does it violate the very policies that SB staffers are supposed to be enforcing, it sets a bad example for everyone else. It needs to stop.

And the term "POV Warrior" really needs to be retired ... it's clearly intended to be insulting to a handful of our members, which is something that SB staffers ... in particular ... should not be doing. The arguments I've seen for using it are nothing more than a rationalization for disrespectful behavior, and reflect more poorly on those who use the term than on those for whom it is intended.

If you don't like his views, you have the option of disageeing with them or ignoring them altogether. Attacking his person ... and applying labels to him and those expressing similar views ... isn't going to win any arguments. It only leaves the impression that those using such tactics believe the rules of engagement here don't apply to them ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[seaducer]

Well, for my money, I feel that it is the staff's job to protect the very inexperienced divers that come here for part of their education. If one of them feels you are being disingenuous they have 2 options, ban you outright, or confront you and attempt to clear up any misunderstandings. I prefer the latter since it gives a fair chance to respond.

I personally do not see any subterfuge going on here, but I do see two sides talking past each other and using language that is more designed to incite anger than it is to solve grievances.

It is more like DCBC and Diver0001 are not reading what is being typed, but responding more to what they think the other person actually means. As a newly married man, I am getting good at recognizing that

As to the issue itself, I will enjoy a little moderation from the extreme sides of each argument, I am getting tired of picking splinters out of my butt riding this fence

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Well, for my money, I feel that it is the staff's job to protect the very inexperienced divers that come here for part of their education.

I tend to see that as my job ... as well as that of every other experienced diver who chooses to participate in a given conversation. But if it's not done in a respectful, constructive manner it tends to be counterproductive ... train wrecks benefit no one except those who come here to entertain themselves by watching others act foolishly.

Staff's job is to keep order, and to rein in those who behave disruptively ... and an important part of that mission involves setting a good example.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Diver0001]

Ok, look.

The issue here is that the staff and owners of the board are interested in making this site accessible to newbie divers who can be told by their instructors, to quote someone else, "that there is a web site where they can go and learn more about scuba without being bombarded constantly with messages denouncing me and the instruction I gave them. This is not the place, and I see little hope that it will become that place any time soon."

Wayne, I don't dislike you at all and there will be no 'bad blood' but I don't think you realise how much damage you do to scubaboard by implying to newbies who might happen across your posts in nearly everything you write :

- you suck
- your instructor sucks
- your agency sucks
- the industry sucks

and doing that with what I believe to be a cynical and negative undertone.

I know you're not the only one, but I see you as the ring-leader and I personally believe that while you *could* be a fantastic asset to the board, you are, at this time, being very unhelpful to the target audience. It frustrates me to the point that I lose my temper with you and that's something that I end up regretting every time we butt heads.

I do believe that it would take very little for you to change your message from (to pick an example) saying something to the effect, "your instructor doesn't know what he's doing" to saying something like, "I believe it would be best if you learned ABC in this-or-that way." The first way, denigrates and insults people and the second teaches them something. There is absolutely nothing wrong with having a POV (I have many myself) but sometimes the delivery does more harm than good. I guess when we talk about POV warriors, we're really talking more about delivery than anything else.

However, through many of these arguments, it would appear that there is nothing anyone can do to get this across. I hate the fact that the board has to tolerate so much negativism and I am not alone in that. I guess I'll have to stop fighting it because I keep making myself look like an idiot and a troll but nothing can make me like it.

R..

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Getting back to the premise of the thread, I didn't vote ... because the poll didn't offer me any choices that I think were appropriate.

In some areas, diver training hasn't generally improved over the years ... in other areas, it certainly has, because we know so much more now than we did back then.

In some areas, diver training has generally declined over the years ... in other areas, it hasn't, because there's so much more training available now than there was back then. It's a lot more targeted and it's a more accessible.

Diver training certainly hasn't stayed the same ... it's evolved. You may argue whichever way you like as to whether that's a good or bad thing, but I think in order to make any kind of a rational analysis, you have to look at a number of factors, including ...

- which level of training you're talking about
- who's offering it and why
- who's taking it and why
- how it accommodates changes in dive equipment
- how it accommodates the needs of the targeted audience
- how it accommodates the growth of the industry

Without consideration for those factors, any discussion is too broad to have meaning.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)