Lake Pleasant Dive Flag Issue
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I just don't understand how having law enforcement do their job and enforce the laws that are already on the books is dumb. There is a reason for those laws and it is to keep people safe.
Seems to me allowing the laws mean't to keep us safe to be ignored is what is dumb.
Seems to me allowing the laws mean't to keep us safe to be ignored is what is dumb.
ScubaDubaDo
Guest
One thing about the night diving almost incident...
It is not common practice for boaters to have "headlights" or any other type of spot light while boating at night. It is also not required by law. I have grown up on lakes in Michigan and have never seen a boater use lights to guide their way through the night. Rather they use objects or lights on the shore or navigation to guide them to their destination. Given this, the safe diving practice, which again is not something currently trained on or practiced, would be to have lights on the dive flag or have special light-up dive flags for night diving created.
Requesting law enforcement to ticket a boater for not using lights at night, other than the required running lights, will likely go nowhere and could have a negative impact on night diving in the community...
It is not common practice for boaters to have "headlights" or any other type of spot light while boating at night. It is also not required by law. I have grown up on lakes in Michigan and have never seen a boater use lights to guide their way through the night. Rather they use objects or lights on the shore or navigation to guide them to their destination. Given this, the safe diving practice, which again is not something currently trained on or practiced, would be to have lights on the dive flag or have special light-up dive flags for night diving created.
Requesting law enforcement to ticket a boater for not using lights at night, other than the required running lights, will likely go nowhere and could have a negative impact on night diving in the community...
I grew up on Long Island New York and learned to navigate the Great South bay, Peconic bay and Shinicock bay where we had to deal with shallows, sand bars and needed to follow marked channels. It was actually quite common to use a compass & spot light to run from 1 marker buoy to the next. Loran and later GPS made it easier but for those that wanted to run at higher speeds needed a spotlight to allow visibility far enough ahead to react. Running lights are fine in open water but may not be sufficient in channels or near shore. This depends on your speed and visibility. Althought a spot is not required by law the law is clear that the boaters must insure safe boating practices and if you can't see far enough to avoid those things you are supposed to avoid that isn't a safe practice. There are navigational markers in the lake also and boaters have from time to time hit those. If they do damage to the marker they are responsible for the cost of repairs and in most cases would be ticketed if caught. Just because a piece of equipment isn't required doesn't mean it isn't a good practice to use. Boaters use Loran and GPS a good practice which are not required. A light seems a fairly simply and inexpensive way to prevent problems that has other uses beyond navigation such as signaling for help if needed. When I piloted my boats I always had at least a hand held spot and I know of many others that wouldn't leave port without 1.
AZTEK DIVER
Contributor
There's laws that say you can't sell drugs, but people do it, there's laws against operating a boat under the influence, but people do it. If the law isn't sitting there watching it happen, they don't get caught, and expecting them to be there when you're diving to protect you, is dumb. Doing a night dive without very well lighted dive flags/bouys or coming up anywhere but the shore is dumb. I think you should talk to law inforcement people that you're upset about and tell them that because they are not spending enough time and tax payer money trying to prevent an accident that has never happened in AZ yet, that they're dumb, I'm betting they feel the same way as I do.
I keep getting roped back into this...
If law enforcement has to enforce a law, to "Fix" the perception of a hazardous situation, they will enforce this law first
ARS 5-347. Interference with navigation or launching areas
A. No person shall unreasonably or unnecessarily interfere with other watercraft, with the free and proper use of the waterways of the state or with areas used for launching watercraft onto such waterways. Anchoring or swimming in heavily traveled channels or launching areas shall constitute such interference.
It is easier to chase off 1 or two divers, than to baby-sit every watercraft moving through a waterway in order to ensure that they don't scare divers.
Both parties could be perceived as breaking the law. If I was the cop, and i was approached by either a boater or a diver that was whining about other users occupying the same space that they were in, I would choose the least affected user, the diver, every time to be the one i asked to move . His presence in a 'heavily traveled channel' breaks a law that is in place to protect his safety and the safety of boaters.
You like to keep saying these swimmers have a right and boaters have a privilege, but there are laws that control usage for both. Any portion of the lake could be a heavily traveled channel during the summer. And therefore deemed not usable to swimmers/divers/floaters.
I do want to be clear, I am not talking about blatant negligence, I think ANY cop that SEES a boater at the lake intentionally run over a dive flag, act reckless, or run over a diver will take appropriate action. I really don't feel this is what you are arguing.
Do think if you went to your local pd and told them someone "almost" came real close to driving on the sidewalk and running you over while you were asleep and blocking their driveway at night, or better yet, "almost" ran you over when you were crossing the street in the middle of the block that they would put on a car vs. pedestrian task force? Pretty similar situation really, There are laws that prevent you from blocking access, and that restrict your right of way to a crosswalk. As well as laws that require a motor vehicle operator to control the speed of a vehicle to avoid a collision.
I hope this is the last time I "Bite"
Jeff
If law enforcement has to enforce a law, to "Fix" the perception of a hazardous situation, they will enforce this law first
ARS 5-347. Interference with navigation or launching areas
A. No person shall unreasonably or unnecessarily interfere with other watercraft, with the free and proper use of the waterways of the state or with areas used for launching watercraft onto such waterways. Anchoring or swimming in heavily traveled channels or launching areas shall constitute such interference.
It is easier to chase off 1 or two divers, than to baby-sit every watercraft moving through a waterway in order to ensure that they don't scare divers.
Both parties could be perceived as breaking the law. If I was the cop, and i was approached by either a boater or a diver that was whining about other users occupying the same space that they were in, I would choose the least affected user, the diver, every time to be the one i asked to move . His presence in a 'heavily traveled channel' breaks a law that is in place to protect his safety and the safety of boaters.
You like to keep saying these swimmers have a right and boaters have a privilege, but there are laws that control usage for both. Any portion of the lake could be a heavily traveled channel during the summer. And therefore deemed not usable to swimmers/divers/floaters.
I do want to be clear, I am not talking about blatant negligence, I think ANY cop that SEES a boater at the lake intentionally run over a dive flag, act reckless, or run over a diver will take appropriate action. I really don't feel this is what you are arguing.
Do think if you went to your local pd and told them someone "almost" came real close to driving on the sidewalk and running you over while you were asleep and blocking their driveway at night, or better yet, "almost" ran you over when you were crossing the street in the middle of the block that they would put on a car vs. pedestrian task force? Pretty similar situation really, There are laws that prevent you from blocking access, and that restrict your right of way to a crosswalk. As well as laws that require a motor vehicle operator to control the speed of a vehicle to avoid a collision.
I hope this is the last time I "Bite"
Jeff
AZTEK DIVER
Contributor
Do you guys forget what you read in early posts or just ignore it Heavily traveled channels are marked with buoys! Those buoys mark a path to designated launching areas we are not talking about divers or swimmers in those areas. The areas we are talking about can and should have better enforcement of current AZ boating law. These areas are out of the heavily traveled channels and the problem exists when jetskiers and boater refuse to go around the 100' out of their way and cut straight across areas being used by swimmers and divers. Or another case is the jetskiers that use dive buoys as a slalom course.
What we are calling for is the same type of enforcement used for Drunk driving, drunk boating, speeding and red light running. Make it a priority and highly visible and the problem will be reduced to much safer levels.
The reality is that a number of us are unwilling to leave this issue be. The rest can get on the bus or get left behind.
This isn't going away.
What we are calling for is the same type of enforcement used for Drunk driving, drunk boating, speeding and red light running. Make it a priority and highly visible and the problem will be reduced to much safer levels.
The reality is that a number of us are unwilling to leave this issue be. The rest can get on the bus or get left behind.
This isn't going away.
ScubaSteve2000
Contributor
Thanks ScubaDubaDo! This is a great idea. It's a matter of US taking responsibility for being seen. We should add it to the list of lake diving safety procedures. OMG if we're not carefull we'll actually create something positive from this thread. Like ways divers can be proactive in safe lake diving. Janet had a good observation. We drive like we're surrounded by the stupidest people in the world. We should dive like we're divng near the stupidest boaters in the world. Our safety is our responsibility. Not the LEOs. Not Sherriff Joe's. I don't want to get into the whole nanny-state thing but it sure sounds like some folks think it's the government's job to keep us safe without any responsibility on our part.
Steve.
Hey we aren't saying that we shouldn't be proactive and do what we can. What we are saying is when all that is said and done we still need LEO's to also be proactive and get stupid boaters to behave more responsibly.
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