Lake Pleasant Dive Flag Issue

[deepdivered]

Well I want to get every ones opinion on an issue that we have bean discussing. This was the first post on this issue.

Well, business as usual at the lake?????

Kris and Mindy had a class down the point from us and I saw a boater come right up to their flag OVER the top of the class. Mindy came up and had to explain to him what the flag was. He then said that he would MOTOR away. Mindy had to again explain that he needed to drift or paddle away.

My son and I had a jet skier drive right OVER our marker bouy.

Leaving the lake, my son and I spoke to the employees at the gate. I sugested that they add the diver down flag and an explaination on their hand outs. Their reaction was, "well boaters are suposed to know the rules". In other words, yah, yah, yah, what ever?!?!?!?!
The last I knew there is no license to drive a boat. 90% of all drivers have had no training or instruction on boat handleing or what the meaning of markers and bouys are.

My other suggestion would be to have several signs made up, white, with the red/white striped diver down flag on it [HUGE] with an explanation and how a boater is to act around it.

Enforcement would be a noval idea!

The ONLY salution to the problm is education AT the lake. Signs are the best salution, in my opinion. At the enterance, boat ramps, marinas. A fund raiser for $$$ to make and post the signs can be done if need be.

Here is AZ law on it:
Diver-Down Flag - Arizona Boating License Laws and Safety Guide

What is every ones opinions and suggestions to this growing problem????
Any one know who to pass this on to for some action at the lake please do so!!

then here are a few more that exspres the ideas as to what we can do.

I was out Diving with the Ed's this weekend. Saw what happened to Kris and Mindy. This is the email in which you can send your safety concerns to: lakepleasant@mail.maricopa.gov

My email was three pages long. Here are a few excerpts:

I think the following actions need to be undertaken as soon as possible:

1. A dedicated area for divers needs to established and roped off from Jet Skis and Boats.,
2. A brochure needs to be developed and handed to boaters and jetskis educating them about dive flag and dive below markers. You could add 1 dollar to the boat fees to pay for this.
3. The lake patrol needs to start patroling known dive areas and ticketing people for endangering divers.

These are EASY fixes to help protects the lives of hundreds of divers who frequent the lakes every week, It would be negilgent to ignore this growing safety issue.

If you agree with these, email the address above with your solution.

Maybe if enough people bring this concern to their attention, someone will actually listen.


jcf

Please don’t take this personally, but I cannot agree with this approach to enhance diver safety, other than enforcement of current laws.

I have been to Pleasant 300 - 400 times of the last 25 years as a user for several different forms of recreation. I have publicly lobbied and attended multiple county meetings to protect certain user rights over the years and have come to understand that you are in the wrong user group if you want to see any positive changes take place.

First of all, you need to remember that the lake was primarily built and funded for irrigation purposes. Recreation is only a secondary benefit but not a right. If this were the case they would use their colorado river allocation water to maintain maximum levels rather than sell those rights. As an example there are people who slip large boats at well over $500.00 per month that effectively end up in a mud puddle in September during some drier years. It they can’t/won’t do anything about keeping these folks happy (ie, actually providing a lake you can boat in), you and your $5.00 (or $6.00 on the MWD side) entry fee means nothing to them.

If any user group has more protective or influential status than it is the fisherman. They have organized lobbies, both nationally and locally, and frankly more people fish-including the park rangers (of which many still fuction in a "Good ole’ boy"network).

As far as a designated area for exclusive scuba use. This IMO is the last thing we need. Because if we get it I will guarantee it will be the only place you will be allowed to dive. All other areas will become off limits. That also puts the burden of the site selection on the park rangers which they will likely select the least desirable area for access and conditions. Also, if fisherman think there might be fish in a designated "scuba" area they will fight for access. Personally, I want the freedom to select my own dive site and will take my chances.

Second of all the idea of thinking that the lake would raise their entry fees by 20% to provide signage to educate users regarding boating laws relating to diving is naive. There is probably 500 - 1,000 non-scuba lake users for every one of us. They each have their own special interest. If we all agreed to fund a dollar for education of all aspects of lake usage, including safety, it is going to cost us $50.00 every time we enter.

Your last point about enforcement is the only realistic answer. But in defense of the law enforcement officers, they have their hands full each weekend just trying to keep people alive. They don’t have the time to deal with potential safety issues as the ones on the surface of the water each weekend are real. Honestly, although I waterski/wakeboard weekly, I never take my boat out on the weekend-because I have a legitimate safety concern. I do scuba dive Pleasant on the weekend, however, because I consider myself to be in a much safer environment from potential boating accidents underwater than I do on the surface. I believe the LEO’s are thinking the same thing and so that is where they spend their time enforcing the law. If you have not had a chance to go into Humbug cove on a weekend between April and September you cannot appreciate this assessment. Spend five minutes there and you will realize you are much safer underwater than on top of it.

My experience with these agencies is that they will seldom do anything positive to one users benefit. It is not worth the cost or opposition unless there is a significant financial incentive. Usually, when problems arise, instead of making changes to protect the affected users they find it is easier to just eliminate the use and thus completely eliminate the same problem from occurring in the future. I feel we are fortunate up to this point to have a decent place to dive without much restrictions. I would rather assume the potential risks as they are, while trying to gently educate boaters in the process, than to lose the right to dive completely.

Just my opinion. We can disagree and still dive together.

‘Bob

Good points. I appreciate hearing other perspectives and understanding where we stand from the point of view of the Lake and Park authorities.

I do think the sign idea has great merit. Perhaps we can raise funds for signage at the boat ramps. Dive shops may be willing to sponsor a sign as it could lead to new clients.

Simple sign - dive flag on left, rules on right, dive shop sponsor underneath, name, number, website.

Each sign could be sponsored by a single shop to encourage people who want to learn more about SCUBA while also informing boaters of what the dive flag means.

c.

While I do agree that education is our best chance of improving the safety situation and that LEO may want to tend to do nothing. I believe if we take the intiative we can force LEO to take action. What I believe it would take is proof of violations. With that in mind I would suggest photos of violators that include the pilot of a boat in violation and the boats registration numbers. Given such proof and individuals that press for enforcement, LEO have little choice but to pursue actions against violators. If they were to refuse then the local gov't could be held liable in addition to the violators in the event of an accident. This is the way that a small group of activists can legally get a response from local gov't. Imagine what would happen if the media were to find out that local gov't was informed of and given proof of safety violatons and did nothing to prevent life threatening situations. Further I would suggest a volenteer enforcement group with the right to issue tickets be formed. I'm sure that the town or state wouldn't mind auxilary police for the park of sorts. Again it is politics so if at first they say no maybe getting the media involved would bring light and force action.

I certainly don't want to turn this constructive post into "one user versus another". Yes, boaters have always been in issue at Lake Pleasant. However, with current lake levels and increased capacity. It is more crowded than ever. I think we can all agree it is a growing problem. Maybe not. I have seen a lot of boaters (more jet skis) that are just reckless and more importantly clueless around divers. And, just because we are a minority doesn't mean we have rights to speak out to the powers controlling the lake. Respecting it is a secondary purpose, it does not make it any less important to folks using the lake.

I certainly do not want to be forced to a single area. I have well over 500 dives at lake pleasant and enjoy the variety of the different sites I have been at. I have dove a dozen lakes that have dedicated dive areas and none of them restrict you to that one location. I don't know why this would be a different situation. The other school of thought here, if someone does get hurt, there is a chance parks and rec may ban diving all together in the lake. The best solution to not having an accident occur is prevention.

I like the ideas of signs and think we should pursue that idea as well. However, signs tend to blend into the background. Like the folks who camp right next to the no camping signs. A boater brochure is handed to them. Written in multiple languages and the people who receive it, know it is intended for them. A jetskier may not understand that the diver signs are related to them as well as boaters. In lieu of a user tax, why not get sponsors to pay for the handout -- which is exactly what they do with the receipts. The advertising on receipts are a revenue source for Lake Pleasant. Just some thoughts.

At the end of the day, enforcement is the best solution and the least practical. It is a low priority response. By the time they get there, the boater/jetskier will probably be gone. The sherriff's department knows that too. Unless the divers are being harassed or the lake patrol is right there when it happens, there is little chance enforcement will be effective. Furthermore, unless it is blatant endangerment, the laws and boater regulations are so loosey goosey, it may not even be a ticketable offensive. Dive Flag laws are written more towards the diver not the boater. Boaters are encouraged to stay away a reasonably prudent distance.

It is a common occurrence for me to have jet skis and boats launch right next to my dive flag at the lake. I had a sailboat tip over on top of my classes dive flag last year. I have seen dive flags used as slalom flags. I actually had a jetskier try to take my flag once. I was holding it at the time.

Just because we are a minority user, doesn't mean we shouldn't ask for simple safety steps be taken. Lake Pleasant is starting to recognize divers at the lake. This might be the right time.

Bob, I appreciate you input. And yes, we can still dive together. No disrespect taken (or given). It is this type of dialog that can round out the right proposal to bring to LP.

I look forward to the ongoing constructive input.

jcf

There are always a small amount of boats/jet skis/etc. who know what the flags are and just don't care. But, the majority really don't know- or don't know what a prudent distance is. We've had friends who have boats say they thought it was 100ft., some thought the buoy was for divers to surface next to, and being the area was ok, etc. etc. They were innocent mistakes and all have been happy to hear the info and be more attentive.

Maybe a little shot from a Dive Alert will solve the problem- anytime some one comes too close, let the Dive Alert blast a few times. Then you once you have their attention you can alert the boater of what the issue is. If that doesn't get the MSCO's attention, all the phone calls the the noise from everybody else nearby will. Then you can politely explain what all the commotion is about. I may have to try this next time we're up there.

Here's a throught.

When you pay the daily fee at the entrance gate, they give you a date and time stamped receipt (i.e. a sheet of paper). I have noted that the reverse side of the document usually includes an advertisement from a local merchant. Placing information regarding the diver down flags on the back of the receipt would ensure that literally everyone entering the park has the information at his or her disposal.

There would of course be a cost associated with this however, I suspect that it may be reasonable. Certainly worth alittle research.

Just a thought.

P.S. Hey Steve, have a great time in San Carlos!

 

[deepdivered]

Here are the last of them

Here's how the Lake Pleasant receipt thing works. You must come up with a design that will fit half that page and submit it to the park for approval. Once you receive approval, you take your design and the rest of the printed information on the receipt to a local printer. Print up 5000 receipts - 2500 sheets, double sided on 5 different colors paper. Have the paper cut in half to create the 5000 receipts and drop it off at the gate.

Call around to local print shops and see how much they will charge. The cheapest I was able to find when I was there and considering advertising this way was about $500. It's probably more than that now. The issue with this is those receipts are only handed out on the county side. You still have boaters that enter on the other side and would never get this information.

If law enforcement at the lake is so busy that they can not address this issue maybe if a number of us volenteer as a type of lakeside sheriffs possi they would offer us the ability to enforce boating and diving issues. I'm sure that if we offer free help they would be willing to offer the training and certification that would allow for such a program. Besides making the lake safer for everyone, it may end up being another revenue producer for the lake.
As for restricting where we can dive I'm fairly sure we as a group could keep that from happening by using both legal and political means. Legally both we and the boaters have the same rights to use the lake. But a arguement can be made against boaters that they both endanger the public and polute the environment. This gives us a upper leg in any public use arguement regardless of the numbers on each side.
Because we do not harm the environment the way boats, RVs, dirtbikers and such do there is little gov't can do to restrict us while they give access to the public for activities that are destructive and dangerous to the environment and others.

If we sit and take a passive approach to this problem at some time we may end up being lambs at the slaughter.
Remember the sole purpose of gov't is to protect the little guy from the masses.
We can and should make the gov't and existing laws work for us.

One last point, we are not looking for any special rules or considerations! What we are insisting on is the enforcement of existing boating regulations pertaining to safety flags. These regulations go beyond simple local gov't issues but have their basis in federal and international maritime law.

I think ( and that's my first mistake ) we as divers post our own Big signs stating the Law . Make it fun , make it simple . We can hang it on our Ez Ups . They get the point and we get the safey and the shade.

You have to be realistic and look beyond your 20 acre dive site. Lake Pleasant is a big lake with serious safely issues-especially on weekends. You can talk education and enforcement all you want but despite all the ad campaigns and public awareness, alcohol and boating continue to exist and still be a huge problem. The majority of fatalities that occur are a result of alcohol, speed and stupidity. I have yet to hear about a single diver killed or injured at Pleasant due to a dive flag violation. The LEO’s don’t have the time to cruise around the lake looking to find out where the divers might be just so they can enforce a vague dive flag requirement. They don’t even have enough presence to enforce the current laws being regularily broken than have provento produce injuries/fatalities.

IMO any campaign to demand greater safety in this regard will only hurt divers in the long term. Currently, we have more access to dive than probably any other users out there. Several areas of the lake are already closed to boaters, fisherman and even more areas to skiers. Divers can pretty much dive wherever they can get to with exception of a few private or closed areas. If divers are successful in convincing the bureaucrats that there is a serious safety problem requiring law enforcement action, it is more realistic to presume they will reduce or completely eliminate access to divers so they have one less problem to worry about. We are not enough numerically to matter. Honestly, up to this point I have been surprised that they have not already limited diving to a single area.

We need to remember that the lake access for diving is not a right. The lake is controlled by the Maricopa Water District. They have no other obligation but to manage the water supply, primarily for irrigation. The west side of the lake is managed by the county parks dept. (incidentally, the county park side is actually privately owned but leased to the county on a long term basis). The county can provide or limit access to whoever they want when operating in the public’s interest. They don’t owe us a dive site and they can sure take it away if they determine that it is not a safe activity that can be adequately managed.

Finally, the five flag requirement as I read it in the revised statue is ambiguous. Other than requiring one it does not indicate specific safety distances for divers or boaters alike. ARS Title 5, Chapter 5, Article 6, 5-362 says "A red flag with white diagonal stripe from staffhead to opposite corner shall be recognized as a diver flag and shall be displayed when a person or persons are actually diving below the water surface and are equipped with apparatus to allow such person or persons to breathe under water." The Arizona Boaters Guide" (AZ game and fish) goes a little further to suggest that boats stay 100 yards from a dive flag, however, they do not mandate any distance.

Based on this language, enforcement is almost impossible unless the LEO can site reckless endangerment, which is a whole different rule section. Furthermore, the language of the statute applies the only burden for compliance on the diver. This in itself is another reason to avoid calling attention to enforcement. Because the way I read it the only act of compliance that I can see as enforceable is that the diver has one. That opens up a whole can of worms in interpretation about how many divers to a flag, how far can you dive from your flag, etc?

I feel that we have a good situation that is reasonably innocuous if we use common sense in our site selection and practice safe diving techniques and navigation. To invite more regulatory awareness to our activity can only put our sport it at risk in my opinion.


'bob

hello i am one of the Ed's as scubajfc calls us. SCUBAholicEd is my dad/dive buddy. Well this is my two cents. i have never heard of a lake being closed to diving. i have heard of them making a spot for divers only but still allowing you to use the rest of the lake. take for example lake mead. i fell just because we are a small group of people does not mean we cant take effort to try and make our sport just a little more safe. you don't see mean people walking to places but they still have cross walks and sines for pedestrians crossing. I fell the best answer is sines of awareness. i think it should be a little funny like a conic to make it more Interesting so it will get the needed attention..

Hi All - I sent an email to Lake Pleasant and received the following reply (to which I replied).

Thanks, Ruth!

I think several dive shops would be interested in hosting a booth. I will pass along your comments and mark my calendar to followup for next year.

I look forward to hearing more about the signs and web. Lake Pleasant is a great place!

Take care, c.

Cindy Fox

From: Ruth McCormick - PARKSX [mailto:ruthmccormick@mail.maricopa.gov]
Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2008 8:28 AM
To: Cindy Fox
Subject: RE: Diver Down Flags

Thank you for your comment. The park understands your concern and shares your interest in keeping our guests safe in the lake. I will forward your email to the park supervisor who will alert the appropriate law enforcement personnel about these issues. She will also make the decision about park signage and web content.

In the meantime, you may be interested to know that Lake Pleasant Regional Park hosts and sponsors the Arizona Safe Boating Celebration where we offer free vessel safety inspections and inform boaters about boating laws and safe boating practices. The park is proud to be the site of the only safe boating celebration in the entire state. This year’s fifth celebration was held on Saturday, May 17th from 8:00 a.m. to 12:00 p.m. and each boat owner who entered the park received the handbook that you reference below.

The committee understands that visual aids raise awareness more quickly than printed literature that may end up in a glove box. Therefore, each year, the committee offers several safety information booths that boat owners may visit while their boat is being inspected. Currently, the celebration does not offer a booth that addresses swimmer or diver safety. If you know of an organization that is interested in hosting such a booth in May 2009, please let me know. Here is the link to the event website for more information: Arizona Safe Boating Celebration

Again, we appreciate your comments and hope that your next experience to the park is safe and more enjoyable.

Ruth McCormick
Maricopa County Parks and Recreation
Lake Pleasant Regional Park
(602) 372-7460, ext. 200
Parks & Recreation - Maricopa County

________________________________________
From: Cindy Fox [mailto:cindyfox@butterflyconsulting.com]
Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2008 4:07 PM
To: Lake Pleasant Park
Subject: Diver Down Flags

Hello!

I’m a SCUBA diver that frequents Lake Pleasant. Recently there have been a number of incidents of boaters not understanding the diver down flag, including boats motoring directly over divers training underwater. With the number of divers in Lake Pleasant, I’d like to investigate what we, as divers, can do to help inform the boating community of the safety hazards. Some ideas the community has include posting signs at Lake Pleasant boat ramps and including the information on your website.

Would you be agreeable to signs and web addition? If so, are there certain regulations governing sign size and placement or could you order signs and tell us the cost that we might need to raise to support such an effort?

Any ideas you have would be welcome! I’ve attached a suggested sign style. I’d be glad to write up web content if needed.

Please feel free to forward my email to anyone who might be able to help us increase diver safety.

Thank you!

Take care, c.

Cindy Fox
cindyfox@butterflyconsulting.com
Butterfly Consulting LLC
Butterfly Consulting LLC
(602) 692-8923

 

[deepdivered]

I would like to hear what every one feel about this and what you feel the next step should be to make this lake more safe for divers.

 

[TRVSDAD]

Personally I have marked in BOLD BLACK MAGIC MARKER ACCROSS MY DIVE FLAG. "KEEP AWAY DIVERS BELOW", "DO NOT REMOVE". Its on both sides. I have not put it in Spanish. I dive early like 7:30 ish and there are only a few Law Enforcement out at that time. The earlier you go the safer it is. There are only two rules to remember when dealing with Lake Officials 1. They don't give #*@% about your problem. 2. Don't forget rule #1. TRVSDAD

 

[Rudebob]

After diving at Pleasant this weekend with Steve, Josh and Bill I think I know what the problem is. Instead of flying the red and white diver down flag we should be flying the International Alpha flag (blue and white). Because it seems like many of the users that were launching from shore through our dive site are not from this country.

On a positive note, however. Even though Pleasant may not offer the diving conditions of Cozumel, or even San Carlos for that matter, at least the mariachi music and language barrier encountered during surface intervals provides the ambience of Mexico .

MG

 

[ScubaSteve2000]

Mike and Bill left after the second dive and a family started setting up next to Josh and me. They had a couple of jet skis and while Josh and I were securing our gear before the second dive one of them came over and asked where we would be diving so they could avoid the area where we would be. I pointed out my dive flag and told them that anytime they saw that flag, they were to assume that divers were in the water. I told them our dive plan indicating the general direction we would be in relation to the dive flag. They were very cooperative.

With the vis being what it was, it was hard to get back to the bouy anchor point. Josh did a better job of finding it than I did. I enjoyed the diving though.

 

[Air On]

I think the only way to stop the boat issue in reality... Set someone up on a boat with a Jolly Rodger flag and a 50 cal machine gun off the bow. Then fire a few warning shots across their bow. That would probably only work for 75% of the boaters...
Your not going to be able to solve Drunk or Stupid.

How many people have had boaters steal thier diver down flags or cut loose their bouy and steal it? I've heard of a few instances of this.

Perhaps a surplus WWII sea mine with a Diverdown pained on the side would work?
Then again how about a new tool the Dive hatchet? If they don't float that can't boat.
Not practical?

There is something to be said for diving off the Diver Down II. Michael Millman can defend your surface area from boaters as you dive... Might be the only SAFE option for now.

 

[ScubaDubaDo]

There is clearly a lack of education among boaters and a lack of caring by the rangers/law enforcement. It is vastly different than in Michigan where most boaters were aware of maritime laws and mostly followed them. Also, law enforcement there strictly enforced the rules so boaters knew they would not get away with anything. It appears the only thing that will truly make a difference is the only thing that ever seems to change things in our society...a really big, nasty law suit that costs the county, state, and tax payers millions...So unfortunate.

 

[Pearldiver07]

... It appears the only thing that will truly make a difference is the only thing that ever seems to change things in our society...a really big, nasty law suit that costs the county, state, and tax payers millions...So unfortunate.

And then everyone in the county and state govt's will say how "they could have never seen this coming."

When I taught in AZ, I was always nervous about the lake. I told my students that boats are the most dangerous aspects of diving and to never forget that they're up there when surfacing.

I personally wonder how anyone could consider the importance of safety to be relative to the number of people you protect. We have plenty of laws, regulations, etc., that have to be followed to keep relatively small groups of people safe at parks. But that's how governments work, oh well...

 

[wiwreckdiver]

Sounds like an ongoing headache. I've read quite a few of the responses to the diver down flag issue on Lake Pleasant, and it would seem that the only real fix is for the LEO's to do some serious enforcement. Perhaps the diving community in the area could put some heat on the parks service, or whom ever enforces maritime law on the lake, to enforce dive flag rules. If the dive shops, dive charters, and the average diver, campaigned strongly, and made a serious plea to the law enforcement agency on the lake to enforce dive flag rules, and keep boaters and divers safer then maybe change would happen. In Wisconsin maritime lawas are STRICTLY enforced and followed by boaters as well as divers, so we don't have the issue you face in Arizona. I can't imagine ascending a line to find some strange boat parked on my bouy, in fact in WI if a diver surfaces farther than a 50ft radius of the dive flag/boat, he/she faces a serious penalty and fine if caught by a ranger or other LEO. I'm not sure how AZ operates in terms of which agency or agencies, patrol and enforce rules on waters out there. Here it could be the Coast Guard, Rangers/Wardens, Sheriff's patrols, or even local Police Dept.'s. At any rate whatever the agency is responsible for patrol and enforcement of the lake out there should be cornered and pressured to be more actively enforcing the dive flag rules. In reality all it would take is a couple weekends of hard enforcement and the issueance of fines/penalties to boaters for the word to get out that it's a serious deal and boaters need to heed dive flag rules. In one posting a user brought up the point that the lake was intended for irrigation, not recreation, however if the State/County is going to allow recreation of any kind on the lake then they are responsible for ensuring safety, regardless of the reason for the lake being there. And from reading responses here, it seems that the LEO's are enforcing laws of some sort, so they are out there. Since they're out there they can patrol known dive areas and ensure diver safety as well. It just sounds like perhaps the Law Enforcement agencies aren't being pressured enough, or by enough numbers, to really draw their attention to the issue. If they get a few complaints here and there from divers, they are felt like a metophoric mosquito, and they simply swat the problem away, but if they are swarmed by the dive commumity enmasse, then they have to give it the attention it needs, it's easy to swat 1 or 2 mosquitos, but it's dang near impossible to swat away an entire swarm of them. In closing, if the dive community out there, that includes the individual diver, as well as dive shops and dive charters actively using the lake, wants better enforcement of the dive flag rules then lobby the Law Enforcement agency in massive numbers to force them to look at the problem and take action to correct it. It's in their best interest to do so, everyone's safety is at the heart of the issue, and as stated in other postings here, it only takes one serious law suit to break their bank, and I'm sure if shown the benefits of enforcing the dive flag rules, they would be more that willing to get on board, and avoid major problems down the road.

Good luck, have fun, dive safe!!