CESA over Shared Air Ascent: Which is Best

[Darnold9999]

Ah yes we all must be doing it wrong. The reality of most diving is that you in fact are separated from your buddy at times and they are not paying strict attention to you at other times. The idea that you will be in lock step diving with them 100 percent of the time is frankly pretty silly, a great goal but get real I have yet to meet the perfect diver buddy and as a photographer I know I'm not one.

Having CESA as a tool in your self rescue toolkit is a good idea in my opinion - not BS. Not running out of air is a better solution of course. The idea that your buddy will be at your side at all times and you will never need to self rescue is the BS here. Sounds good, but in the real world stuff happens and nobody is perfect.

 

[24940]

Ah yes we all must be doing it wrong. The reality of most diving is that you in fact are separated from your buddy at times and they are not paying strict attention to you at other times.

That is not a reality of diving, in my experience. It's a reality of poor training or lazy divers.

The idea that you will be in lock step diving with them 100 percent of the time is frankly pretty silly, a great goal but get real I have yet to meet the perfect diver buddy and as a photographer I know I'm not one.

It's not about perfection, it's about attentiveness and responsibility.

Having CESA as a tool in your self rescue toolkit is a good idea in my opinion - not BS. Not running out of air is a better solution of course. The idea that your buddy will be at your side at all times and you will never need to self rescue is the BS here. Sounds good, but in the real world stuff happens and nobody is perfect.

I don't see anyone arguing against having CESA as a tool, I'm certainly not. That has nothing to do with the thread or the poll. Simple question: Which is preferable under the given scenario?

So far, six people feel it is better to blow off ascent rates and safety stops than to do a normal ascent, while sharing air with a buddy. For the life of me, I can't understand how that would be better.

Case in point:

I go with the CESA. If I am with a buddy I would quickly try and signal my situation to him and begin the CSEA. Hopefully if he sees my signal he will follow me up.

Looking at his profile, I see he is 63 yo and has been diving since the middle part of last century. I understand where his thinking originated, I trained with an ex Navy Seal and he was pretty big on self sufficiency. I get that. But, given the choice of CESA or a normal ascent with safety stop while sharing air, CESA is a poor decision, especially as you age.

It's not a question of why would you be OOA, just a simple question of which is better under the given scenario.

 

[24940]

I am pretty sure it was Sheck Exley who stated at one of his seminars; "**** Happens"!

I don't understand your point.

I think it indicates that when people go into environments they are naturally intended to be in, it is wise to know how to deal with the absolute worst case scenario. Underwater, that means being out of breathing gas for whatever reason. Going into space, that means among several things, loss of vehicle integrity.

I agree with you, but I got the impression the Rec Diver might have a different take on it.

I see the '**** happens' as a reality which can have different outcomes, depending on the attitude fo the person experiencing the ****. So...

**** happens, accept it as inevitable
or
**** happens, define what **** can happen and prepare for it as best you can.

From what I know about Shek Exley, he was very big on identifying **** and the procedures that made **** something more manageable.

 

[Al Mialkovsky]

Okay this is interesting. I would vote for Alt Air source (share air) no question. I would also expect if I was diving that I could probably manage to buddy breath (share air) well enough and that would be safer than a CESA.

However, Padi puts them in this order (1 most preferred to 4 Least perferred)
1. Normal ascent (assuming you are not truly out of air completely)
2. Alternate Air Source (Share Air)
3. CESA
4. Buddy Breath (Share Air)
5. Buoyant Emergency Swimming ascent
(drop weights so they find your corpse on the surface I guess). -- completely toungue in cheek here

I don't know if I really understand why CESA's are ranked above Buddy Breathing but the answer I've been told (and told to give) is that Buddy Breathing can put more stress on the other diver and lead to another victim. It kind of makes sense but I still believe most of my buddys could manage it fine. (Maybe even most of my students).

Sorry Halimano I didn't read your post before I did this.

Seriously? Padi ranks CESA above buddy breathing? With buddy breathing you still have an opportunity to do a safety stop. Good grief.

 

[ClayJar]

Seriously? Padi ranks CESA above buddy breathing? With buddy breathing you still have an opportunity to do a safety stop. Good grief.

The complication with buddy breathing has more to do with lung over-expansions than with DCS.

Doing an ascent with a regulator out of your mouth half the time shouldn't be a big deal to any trained divers who maintain an open airway (eg. by exhaling slightly) the entire way. Unfortunately, the consequences of failing to abide by that procedure are exceedingly significant. Obviously, both CESA and buddy breathing involve ascending while exhaling, but with CESA the task-loading is significantly reduced (your regulator stays in your mouth, and all you have to remember is "blow and go slow").

I would rather have to deal with a DCS case than AGE. I have time to deal with DCS in a diver, and with O₂ and possibly a chamber ride, a recreationally-bent diver is likely to respond well. On the other hand, all it takes is a little task-loading-induced forgetfulness during the ascent, and the attempted buddy breather could suffer lung barotrauma potentially leading to AGE. Without very prompt significant intervention, AGE has a good chance in ending with severe consequences up to and including death (which doesn't often respond well to treatment).

 

[Al Mialkovsky]

Clay I suspect if someone is going to hold their breath while buddy breathing they're likely to hold their breath during a CESA. At least while buddy breathing your donor can give you a gentle reminder to breathe while controlling your ascent.

 

[ClayJar]

Clay I suspect if someone is going to hold their breath while buddy breathing they're likely to hold their breath during a CESA.

It's not the intentional breath-holders that I'd be thinking of, as they've got problems regardless. I'd be more concerned about the ones who aren't trying to hold their breath but simply "forget to breathe" due to the task loading and high stress of the situation. I'm specifically thinking about a stressed diver who has already run out of air once and who is likely to try to take a really big breath before handing off the regulator. Throw the task loading and stress of the ascent into that, and add in the likelihood of ascending much faster than the prescribed ascent rates (or at least, that seems often to be the case in stressful situations), and you're primed for a problem.

At least while buddy breathing your donor can give you a gentle reminder to breathe while controlling your ascent.

For you or for me, that's absolutely true. For any highly-qualified buddy, it's likely as well. For the type of diver to which PADI's recommendation applies, on the other hand, I would suggest that the likelihood the donor will be paying sufficient attention to manage the buddy breathing is significantly less.

Consider the chain of events through which a diver in gear currently accepted as "standard" can end up in a situation for which the choice must be made between CESA and buddy breathing. To have made it all the way to buddy breathing, enough has gone wrong that the attentiveness and judgement of the divers involved is certainly impeached.

Would *I* go to buddy breathing before I went to CESA, provided I had one of my well-educated, experienced buddies with me? Of course I would. Still, I must admit that given the range of quality in the divers I've observed (both rank newbies and seasoned "veterans"), I cannot in good conscience recommend buddy breathing. PADI's recommendation of CESA before buddy breathing takes into account PADI's appraisal of the state of diving, and while I may consider some of their policies to be culpable for the current state of diving, I cannot disagree with their assessment.

 

[Rec Diver]

I don't understand your point.

"String" was refering to events that may happen during a dive as being stupidity. I think he said they were "stupid". My point is that no matter how much you plan, or how smart you think you are, something can always go wrong. Stupidity has nothing to do with it. Murphy's law is always waiting around the corner.

 

[Al Mialkovsky]

Ok Clay appreciate your input. I suppose the thread is about cesa vs shared air. I'm shocked that even 6 out of nearly 100 would prefer the cesa over sharing air.

Honestly I never did more than talk about buddy breathing to my students. I don't like it much and there honestly isn't much use for it. I think the task loading could be an issue for the 3 day wonders for sure.

 

[spectrum]

I cant imagine why wone would choose CESA with an accesible competent buddy that had adequate air. That last part takes it beyond your poll constraints.

Given decent gas planning this should not be a problem assuming your OOA is gear driven.

The one thing you do not want to do is put a second diver in jeopardy.

Another practical consideration is that modern dive practices have layers of safeguards. Not long ago a 60 FPM ascent with no safety stop was the norm.

Another benefit of the buddy ascent is that buddy support is maintained,

Pete