An age-old question: ways to 60m.
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Just out of curiosity, would Boarderguy no longer be a dangerous idiot if he took an Extended Range course? Obviously (not being sarcastic) training can make a significant difference in safety, so if he got the TDI card he'd be good to 55m? Or got CMAS training and good to 60m?
Deep air is inherently no more dangerous now than it was before what, the early 80's (?) when trimix became more accepted. Arguably, while neither the air nor divers have changed since then, deep air may be safer now because of things like dive computers. Still might not be the BEST idea, and there are certainly safer options now that weren't available "back in the day", but the way some of the posts read here you'd think only a blithering idiot would go out and do dives that certain agencies will actually train you to do. So, is the issue really Boarderguy's delivery and nonchalant acceptance of "Hey, getting a little narced feels good"? Because if he was CMAS or TDI certified and talking about doing 55-60m on air, I can't imagine the same venom would be spraying his way.
Deep air is inherently no more dangerous now than it was before what, the early 80's (?) when trimix became more accepted. Arguably, while neither the air nor divers have changed since then, deep air may be safer now because of things like dive computers. Still might not be the BEST idea, and there are certainly safer options now that weren't available "back in the day", but the way some of the posts read here you'd think only a blithering idiot would go out and do dives that certain agencies will actually train you to do. So, is the issue really Boarderguy's delivery and nonchalant acceptance of "Hey, getting a little narced feels good"? Because if he was CMAS or TDI certified and talking about doing 55-60m on air, I can't imagine the same venom would be spraying his way.
I just googled "SCUBA deep air", and one of the first entries I came up with was:
Thread was started in 2011. I started reading it, and at least a few of the posters in that thread are still active participants here.
Thread was started in 2011. I started reading it, and at least a few of the posters in that thread are still active participants here.
From CMAS, the old standard for three stars:
"This training programme aims at introducing the fundamentals of dive leadership to experienced certified CMAS Two Star Divers, which will enable them to plan, organise and conduct their dives and lead other sport divers in open water, to a maximum depth of fifty six (56) meters in a safe and competent manner."
The new and current standard:
"Dive to a maximum depth of 40 metres if accompanied by a diver with same
level or equivalent according to the national and local legal requirements."
I was certified under the old standard to three stars and divemaster in 1999 and the four star did not exist.
Current CMAS technical diving standard states a max ppo2 1.4 and END 40meter
As an instructional rating holder it is your responsibility to keep up with the standards.
@passeparici can you please link to a current CMAS standard that allows 60 m on a regular basis?
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Yes, many technical divers would say only a blithering idiot would do those dives and there is alot of justification for that sentiment. To be clear I'm not saying that exactly. I am saying first and foremost that deep air is a very antiquated way of doing those dives. So much so that MOST technical agencies have moved away or shunned deep air. Some still have courses, but if you talk to instructors who are held to a high regard within those agencies, they are very disappointed that the agencies still teach it. Times change, some divers don't. One of the confounding issues here is the extremely high price of and difficulty to obtain helium. This could have been a very good discussion on mitigating risks or understanding how to make the decision to choose deep air if you're in a place that you simply can't get helium or can't afford it.
The issue is that he has been spouting things that he believes and speaks as though he has technical training to back it, when he clearly doesn't. It is very dangerous to push an idea that is pretty much ubiquitously shunned because there are better options for the masses on an open forum like SB. That is MY main issue. If he kills himself diving, that's his issue (not that I would ever wish that upon someone). But he could also kill his buddy or get someone who doesn't know better in trouble from his inaccurate information. He gets defensive when people who have both the experience and training give an alternative point and also goes to gaslighting and passive aggressive comments. Those are the issues, at least for me and I suspect most of the people who are annoyed by him.
One of the sayings I hate the most is "you don't know what you don't know." It makes my skin crawl because it gets thrown around so much in the dive community. But I will say that this is one of those times it really makes sense. To try to denigrate others because they chose the path of proper education and experience by calling them card seekers is a prime example. What he doesn't understand is that anybody can read something in the literature and learn. A good instructor who "gives you a card" is there to make sure you understand how what you're being taught translates over to the actual dive. More importantly a good diver will always learn at least one thing from a good instructor no matter how many cards you hold. A good student/diver is open to ideas and wants to expand their knowledge base to make informed decisions about how they dive. I have taken the same technical class from multiple agencies and multiple instructors to try to be the best informed diver I can be and to make sure I have skills that I am proud of and that won't kill my buddy. Some people will say that's a waste of time and money and I understand that. But imo if I glean one thing that I didn't previously know or perfect, it's worth every dollar. Boarderguy is just saying its a racket to make money off of dummies like me who want to learn from an experienced instructor, yet he has never taken a formal technical class.
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I would never trust my own personal safety to a buddy, a mentor, a textbook, a class, an instructor, or to ANY agency. No one knows everything and anyone that tells you they do should be looked at with suspicion.
Learn from every source you can and learn to differentiate between analytical vs blowhard arguments.
I’m quite happy to have my physicians trained at a university and hospital, thank you.
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