Info Aqualung Financial Troubles

[Mobulai]

I’ll assume that was sarcastic, but just in case
Doesn’t Mares have mil contracts as well?
And the only “unique” Apeks part is the HP seat, that is available from 3rd party suppliers (also for clones)
My speculation is Apeks will be dropped (maybe to a Chinese/Taiwanese clone mfg) and AL will stay, as previously mentioned — synergy
(I don’t wanna be patient 0 for a rumor so nobody quote/throw lettuce at me)

I got no horse in this game eitherway, I have like 1 of each (AL,Mares,Apeks) that I got out of curiosity vs ~100 SP regs
(Let’s leave my hoarding/regaholism out of it)

 

[USdiver1]

they should just keep the popular aqualung and apeks models and get rid of mares regs

Eliminate Mares? Sacrilege! Burn him at the stake for his heresy. I'm being kind here.

Mares has a storied past almost as much as does Aqualung/USDivers/Spirotechnique.

 

[lowwall]

For the sake of continuity and fidelity they don’t pull off a Dacor

Totally different situation. Aqualung is still a going concern with working production facilities. Dacor was in liquidation, didn't actually produce most of their products and their suppliers had already scrapped the tooling and moved on.

 

[Mobulai]

Totally different situation. Aqualung is still a going concern with working production facilities. Dacor was in liquidation, didn't actually produce most of their products and their suppliers had already scrapped the tooling and moved on.

I learn something new everyday - so basically Dacor scraped Dacor and Mares just bought some IP
There is a saying in Arabic “by my hand and not Amru’s” that perfectly encapsulates the situation
Kinda like

 

[lowwall]

they should just keep the popular aqualung and apeks models and get rid of mares regs

I guess you haven't been paying attention. Mares has been the most innovative reg manufacturer since their current generation started coming out in 2018. They invested in an ANSTI machine and engineering work and now their entire line of diaphragm regs is EN250A certified (the A means it can support two divers at depth compared to one for the common EN250 certification). With their environmental seal kit (TBP) which again is either standard or optional on all diaphragm first stages, they meet the NORSOK U-101 standard at a depth of 200m. Only Poseidon and Apeks meet the latter standard and only with their flagship reg.

Except for the Atomics with the TFX second stage, everyone else has spent the last decade making minor tweaks at best.

 

[runsongas]

@lowwall i don't see any new innovations on the epic 82x or whatever they call their flagship. its not like balanced dry sealed diaphragm regs haven't been around forever. everything listed under technologies is used by other brands too, the only thing unique is the marketing terms they use for it.

mares claims to meet/exceed the requirements of Norsok U101 but not that they are accredited or certified to the Norsok U101 standard, that is an important distinction and I haven't seen official testing

the best thing mares sells is their fins for recreational diving and synergy would be keep apeks as the technical line, aqualung for the regulators, and mares for soft goods like jacket bcds/masks/fins.

 

[Mobulai]

As much as I’m not a personal fan of Mares (started with an aesthetical bias, then grew into a sunken cost bias — aslo not a cold water diver so it’s not my cup of tea); as much as I have to admit they are really impressive from an engineering standpoint (IP stability and that piston sealing for a diaphragm reg — albeit originally a Dacor idea)
I even bought an abyss just for appreciation

balanced dry sealed diaphragm

Here’s a quick sample of some impressive feats

I have the TBP on my 82X (a heavy reg) and on my 28XR. It's really quite ingenious (though not completely new - the Dacor Extreme had a plastic oring sealed sleeve piston that acted the same way).
View attachment 884828
In any case, this floating piston head acts like the diaphragm, sealing against a smooth inner sealing surface just like a piston reg. The pin that opens the valve is connected to the piston head, and the seal above is a similar floating piston-head-like device that accepts the load of the environmental seal. Connecting the two together maintains the alignment of the sealing piston head that substitutes for the diaphragm.
Thus you have a dry-sealed reg with all the advantages of a diaphragm (crisper lockup for longer) but no constantly flexing diaphragm.
Time will tell if the oring seal does better than the diaphragm, but at least no more of these:
View attachment 884720
View attachment 884721
Mares has tested the 28XR to 200m.

If you're talking that cold a water temp (36°F), I'd think Mares.
Here's an NEDU pic from years ago.
View attachment 885804
You can see that all the icing is on the bypass tube. The reg case, with the more delicate mechanism susceptible to having ice trap the valve in the open position and freeflow, is completely devoid of ice.

And no, from what I understand, it's second stage icing that leads to the freeflows more than first stage lockup, but both can be issues. But I'm not a cold water diver. Take my advice with a grain of salt.

I'd pick a Mares 62x Atlas Adj (one of the metal seconds). I'd add the TBP environmental seal to the 62x. I've seen prices around $740, not including aux second stage.

The A700 knob adjustment is over-engineered with too tight tolerances and a questionable choice of materials. I'm not a fan. Here's a frozen one at the two year mark.
View attachment 885805

In spirit of fairness, I (technically) dislike their fins, jackets, and the fact they own SSI, liveaboard and made that ewaste of a mares horizon (bad monopoly vibes)

But here’s the important question to try and bring this back to topic: why do you have to sacrifice something for another? Why just hate on them? Why should Mares (the ones who bailed out AL) die on their sword to save Apeks?

Apeks is the weak link here, and I wish they survive as well; but if I’m some corporate honcho (and had their killer cutthroat decision mentality) I wouldn’t hesitate for a sec to kill them, and again thinking a step further, I would make a great buck selling it to the companies which made their bread and butter cloning its designs (and already make a ton based on it)
Mares is far more beloved by DACH (german speaking) divers than any other brand (proven by the classifieds I see, 10:1 to any other brand) — rock solid in the cold lakes; and these peeeps drop loads more cash in than any Apeks revenue stream

I’ve seen this story over and over in the automotive world — and I’ll place my bets on it playing that way (besides it being ludicrous that Mares/Head announce a takeover just to kill Mares)

 

[lowwall]

@lowwall i don't see any new innovations on the epic 82x or whatever they call their flagship. its not like balanced dry sealed diaphragm regs haven't been around forever. everything listed under technologies is used by other brands too, the only thing unique is the
marketing terms they use for it.

Transmission of external pressure is completely different when using the TBP sealed system. They've ditched the diaphragm and replaced it with a metal disc sealed by an o-ring, they've also replaced the plastic transmitter in the environmentally sealed portion with another metal part. These two parts have stems (one hollow) that face each other to maintain alignment. All of this allows for much greater precision than the plastic transmitter and rubber diaphragm everyone else uses.

mares claims to meet/exceed the requirements of Norsok U101 but not that they are accredited or certified to the Norsok U101 standard, that is an important distinction and I haven't seen official testing

What difference does this make? Unless you are insinuating that they are lying? Here's an example quote from their 2021 catalog for the 25XR CR: "ACHIEVED NORSOK U-101 WORK OF BREATHING REQUIREMENTS AT THE DEPTH OF
320 M AT A BREATHING RATE OF 62,5 L/MIN WHILE USING A BREATHING MIX OF 1,6%
OXYGEN IN HELIUM (AS PER NORSOK U-101)".

 

[runsongas]

@Mobulai a bunch of people flogging used mares gear doesn't sound like a ringing endorsement, it sounds like people trying to replace stuff they regretted buying because their SSI shop did a good job selling it to them when they got certified

@lowwall the counterpoint is then if they meet the requirements and spent the money on an ANSTI machine, why not pay the fee to get it formally certified, at least on the flagship model to they can sell it to commercial divers?

 

[Mobulai]

@Mobulai a bunch of people flogging used mares gear doesn't sound like a ringing endorsement, it sounds like people trying to replace stuff they regretted buying because their SSI shop did a good job selling it to them when they got certified

Mostly retirees that stopped diving selling boxes of regs (doubles + stage + deco regs) tells me a different story
(Not that the SSI pipeline thing doesn’t get on my nerves)

Devalued Apeks regs that stay listed/relisted for so long OTOH.. the demand is certainly low

I admit it’s a speculative metric on my side and doesn’t necessarily have to correlate to quality/satisfaction, but speaks to market dominance

Once more I’m a fan of neither myself, the only time I dove a Mares reg it was a rental, during my PADI OW training, and the Apeks that I bought from new (DST) has been such a disappointment that after 4 dives I shelved it then demoted it to backup deco reg (after an AL), but I plan to replace both with SP mk2 for a better hazard mitigation

why not pay the fee to get it formally certified, at least on the flagship model to they can sell it to commercial divers?

i don’t think that’s how things work from an operational cost management nor a legal perspective; but I’m no insider myself so