Certification problems

[Jim Lapenta]

Sorry for your experience. It is an unfortunate artifact that scuba certifications can have many different components leading to misunderstanding, some deliberate and some not.

We used to have a dive shop in our area who gave students gear for use free in the confined water pool session and then charged them rental for use in open water. In that case the intention was to lower the initial payment quote for the course. The instructors who were forced to announce this to the students hated to have to do that. But it was the store's standing policy.



Welcome to Scubaboard.

That's not uncommon around here. I used a shop pool that provided gear for the pool as part of my renting the pool, but OW gear for checkouts had to be rented, borrowed, stolen, etc.
But students were told up front that this was the deal.
I didn't care where they got the gear as long as it was safe and in working condition.
It would have been nice if they rented it from the shop, but some didn't want to transport everything back and forth, so they rented it at the quarry.

 

[boulderjohn]

When the dive shop I worked for switched over to SSI, the SSI owner (Doug McNeese) came over and did a week-long seminar on scuba marketing. It included all sorts of tricks you could use to get the most $$$ from the customers. The key focus was on getting them to purchase a full set of equipment before the class was over, which meant not only charging them for rental equipment on the OW dives, it meant charging them for rental equipment that you made sure they knew was crappy and possibly unsafe.

 

[JonnieB]

The key focus was on getting them to purchase a full set of equipment before the class was over, which meant not only charging them for rental equipment on the OW dives, it meant charging them for rental equipment that you made sure they knew was crappy and possibly unsafe.

I'm a non-working Divemaster and appreciate that my LDS's business plan doesn't include equipment sales, only courses, local dives, and LOB sales.

 

[Mobulai]

The "agreement" appears to be a text message, not any kind of signed contract, I'm not sure how much PADI is going to go to bat for a student in this situation. PADI's customers are dive centers, not dive students.

in an OW cert scenario that is easy to say...
but extending this sentiment reminds me of a recent crappy experience:
Only text & word of mouth agreements have been used between me and my freelance instrustor for TDI AN+DecoPro+mod1 deco
we also agreed on the prices that way
After doing all the training and getting a word of mouth that I passed -- he reneged on my status, claiming that we never did DP!
He certified me only to AN and mod1 (no deco)
After some phone discussions he claimed that I was not on DP level because I didn't have good trim and back kicks (BS, same logic could mean that I shouldn't have my mod1 cert, which came after )
(I did a few 45 min deco dives in OC, and a couple of deco dives on CC)
He didn't ask for more money -- but he was also charging me by day not by package

Long story short I wrote a long detailed "report" to TDI and still await their input; I have the dive logs to back my claims

Now.. I could have accepted that if he gave me the feedback on the spot and not lied to me about it to (I assume) make me do further courses (hence more work days for him)
He could be right, but then why take me on dives beyond my level? That is endangering the student (me)
He could be wrong, but how can I force him to cert me on it? It's the instructors descretion to have final word in pass/fail

A written agreement means nothing in such a case, and I will keep my part of the agreement anyway (I pay him for his working days -- not a garuntee of certification);
I belive (and everyone is free to disagree) that TDI standards have been broken here and they should bat for me not him (HE is their coustomer here right? they only get scraps for the cert itself from me, 95% of my "cost" was gases (35%) and his fees(60%))

Luckily another great resident Instructor that was assisting him on some of the dives says that I was on paar and should have been certified; and I will redo DecoPro with him for the cert sake (and the fun of the dives -- they guy is a friend of a friend coencidentally), sadly he is not a mod1 instructor yet

Renegging on a deal AND not being straight about it is just low, regardless; and either way it's hold a Cert hostage and giving excuses

sorry for hijacking but I was a bit triggered -- it's still kinda fresh for me

 

[boulderjohn]

I belive (and everyone is free to disagree) that TDI standards have been broken here and they should bat for me not him

When I started Tech training, it was with a TDI instructor who told us from the first day that although our certification was coming from TDI, he would be following what he said were GUE standards and procedures for the class. We, of course, had no idea what those standards were, and since there are no equivalent classes between the two, I still have no idea, even though I later became a TDI instructor. (I do know that much of what we had to do is not part of GUE, either.) We showed up at each class dive never knowing what was going to happen that day or what we would eventually need to be able to do to pass the class.

After a long time of this, I sent a detailed message to TDI describing all that we had to do in the class that was not part of the TDI course curriculum. I got a reply saying that it sounded like I was getting an especially thorough class, and I should be happy about it.

With an agency like PADI, an instructor can add to the standard course content, but that instructor cannot withhold certification for a student who completed all the required portions of the course but did not complete the stuff the instructor added. With TDI, an instructor is allowed to add whatever requirements he or she wishes and can withhold certification until the student completes the extra stuff. That is a point of pride with them.

 

[sea_ledford]

The greatest failure in communication is the the illusion that it happened in the first place.

 

[Mobulai]

When I started Tech training, it was with a TDI instructor who told us from the first day that although our certification was coming from TDI, he would be following what he said were GUE standards and procedures for the class. We, of course, had no idea what those standards were, and since there are no equivalent classes between the two, I still have no idea, even though I later became a TDI instructor. (I do know that much of what we had to do is not part of GUE, either.) We showed up at each class dive never knowing what was going to happen that day or what we would eventually need to be able to do to pass the class.

After a long time of this, I sent a detailed message to TDI describing all that we had to do in the class that was not part of the TDI course curriculum. I got a reply saying that it sounded like I was getting an especially thorough class, and I should be happy about it.

With an agency like PADI, an instructor can add to the standard course content, but that instructor cannot withhold certification for a student who completed all the required portions of the course but did not complete the stuff the instructor added. With TDI, an instructor is allowed to add whatever requirements he or she wishes and can withhold certification until the student completes the extra stuff. That is a point of pride with them.

That sounds nice I guess in hindsight.. I’m game for higher standards, it’s not the cert it’s what you learn right?
Edit: I want your instructor (he communicated in advance)

What I meant about broken standards is claiming not doing a deco course and taking me on deco dives — feels like a serious violation

 

[Mobulai]

The greatest failure in communication is the the illusion that it happened in the first place.

 

[boulderjohn]

What I meant about broken standards is claiming not doing a deco course and taking me on deco dives — feels like a serious violation

Although Advanced Nitrox and Deco Procedures are written as two different courses, the instructor is allowed to combine them and treat them as a single course, with required dives done in a different order than if the courses were done consecutively. It makes a lot of sense to do it combined, because, frankly, a stand alone advanced nitrox class makes very little sense, and the combined system (which is spelled out) works much better. If a course is taught that way, you may indeed be doing decompression dives before you are technically done with the Advanced Nitrox class.

In the above paragraph, I said you may be doing decompression dives rather than you will be doing decompression dives because, unless the rules have changed since I left TDI, Decompression Procedures certification does not actually require doing any decompression dives.

 

[Mobulai]

No the standard didn't change -- I literally had to quote it to him as part of confrontation (see below)
and you do bring up a fair point -- but none of that is my issue nor what I am arguing with it; I agree

Plan was exactly that; Do AN+DP combined, Do few more OC deco fun dives; do mod1 deco; and we followed that plan excatly

Afterwards (a month later, over texts):
he 1st claimed we didn't do the course (decopro) and it was just AN
when confronted with dive logs he claimed that we did, and I wasn't up to "pass requirments"

here is the big one:
We did CCR Deco dives afterwards as part of mod1 deco; which has DecoPro as prerequisite

I am all for playing it safe, not the opposite. He COULD HAVE TOLD ME I don't pass decopro, we could have done mod1 no deco, or just worked on something else, and I would have been ok (not very happy, but I am resonable I believe) with it

which reminds me; I need to reachout to TDI to see if they have a follow up -- haven't heard back in a while