Certification problems

[Mobulai]

The greatest failure in communication is the the illusion that it happened in the first place.

 

[boulderjohn]

What I meant about broken standards is claiming not doing a deco course and taking me on deco dives — feels like a serious violation

Although Advanced Nitrox and Deco Procedures are written as two different courses, the instructor is allowed to combine them and treat them as a single course, with required dives done in a different order than if the courses were done consecutively. It makes a lot of sense to do it combined, because, frankly, a stand alone advanced nitrox class makes very little sense, and the combined system (which is spelled out) works much better. If a course is taught that way, you may indeed be doing decompression dives before you are technically done with the Advanced Nitrox class.

In the above paragraph, I said you may be doing decompression dives rather than you will be doing decompression dives because, unless the rules have changed since I left TDI, Decompression Procedures certification does not actually require doing any decompression dives.

 

[Mobulai]

No the standard didn't change -- I literally had to quote it to him as part of confrontation (see below)
and you do bring up a fair point -- but none of that is my issue nor what I am arguing with it; I agree

Plan was exactly that; Do AN+DP combined, Do few more OC deco fun dives; do mod1 deco; and we followed that plan excatly

Afterwards (a month later, over texts):
he 1st claimed we didn't do the course (decopro) and it was just AN
when confronted with dive logs he claimed that we did, and I wasn't up to "pass requirments"

here is the big one:
We did CCR Deco dives afterwards as part of mod1 deco; which has DecoPro as prerequisite

I am all for playing it safe, not the opposite. He COULD HAVE TOLD ME I don't pass decopro, we could have done mod1 no deco, or just worked on something else, and I would have been ok (not very happy, but I am resonable I believe) with it

which reminds me; I need to reachout to TDI to see if they have a follow up -- haven't heard back in a while

 

[JonnieB]

in an OW cert scenario that is easy to say...
but extending this sentiment reminds me of a recent crappy experience:
Only text & word of mouth agreements have been used between me and my freelance instrustor for TDI AN+DecoPro+mod1 deco
we also agreed on the prices that way
After doing all the training and getting a word of mouth that I passed -- he reneged on my status, claiming that we never did DP!
He certified me only to AN and mod1 (no deco)
After some phone discussions he claimed that I was not on DP level because I didn't have good trim and back kicks (BS, same logic could mean that I shouldn't have my mod1 cert, which came after )
(I did a few 45 min deco dives in OC, and a couple of deco dives on CC)
He didn't ask for more money -- but he was also charging me by day not by package

Long story short I wrote a long detailed "report" to TDI and still await their input; I have the dive logs to back my claims

Now.. I could have accepted that if he gave me the feedback on the spot and not lied to me about it to (I assume) make me do further courses (hence more work days for him)
He could be right, but then why take me on dives beyond my level? That is endangering the student (me)
He could be wrong, but how can I force him to cert me on it? It's the instructors descretion to have final word in pass/fail

A written agreement means nothing in such a case, and I will keep my part of the agreement anyway (I pay him for his working days -- not a garuntee of certification);
I belive (and everyone is free to disagree) that TDI standards have been broken here and they should bat for me not him (HE is their coustomer here right? they only get scraps for the cert itself from me, 95% of my "cost" was gases (35%) and his fees(60%))

Luckily another great resident Instructor that was assisting him on some of the dives says that I was on paar and should have been certified; and I will redo DecoPro with him for the cert sake (and the fun of the dives -- they guy is a friend of a friend coencidentally), sadly he is not a mod1 instructor yet

Renegging on a deal AND not being straight about it is just low, regardless; and either way it's hold a Cert hostage and giving excuses

sorry for hijacking but I was a bit triggered -- it's still kinda fresh for me

It does sound like you got a raw deal but of course, it's just one side of the story. Often times, when it comes to scuba instruction, things are informal as there's the while "chill" vibe surrounding the sport (and often people are on vacation mode when doing it). I got all my certs years ago so can't remember exactly, but it seems to me when people put out $400 or more for OW and thousands for a tech course, there should be a written agreement on the course syllabus and completion standards. If cert is denied, especially at the higher course levels, a written student evaluation should be provided by the instructor.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Although Advanced Nitrox and Deco Procedures are written as two different courses, the instructor is allowed to combine them and treat them as a single course, with required dives done in a different order than if the courses were done consecutively. It makes a lot of sense to do it combined, because, frankly, a stand alone advanced nitrox class makes very little sense, and the combined system (which is spelled out) works much better. If a course is taught that way, you may indeed be doing decompression dives before you are technically done with the Advanced Nitrox class.

In the above paragraph, I said you may be doing decompression dives rather than you will be doing decompression dives because, unless the rules have changed since I left TDI, Decompression Procedures certification does not actually require doing any decompression dives.

Open Water Execution:1. Four dives are required, 2 of those dives must be deeper than 30 Metres/100 Feet.2. If Advanced Nitrox is taught in conjunction with decompression procedures* only a total of 6 dives are required.

I always taught the combined class with a minimum of 10 dives, and the last 3 were actual decompression dives where the deco time did not exceed the bottom time.
Even when I started to split the class into two, AN and DP, we still did 10 dives.
5 for AN and 5 for DP made a significant difference in their skill levels and retention of the materials.
I'd do AN one weekend, focusing hard on bottle handling, team skills, and emergency procedures in less than 30 feet of water. We'd rack up 8 to 9 hours of good bottom time. And we'd cover some of the DP skills here. It was an AN/DP class.
Just with a break between sessions.
I'd then have the students go off and practice for a month or so. However many dives they did was up to them, but 99% of them tried to get more than a half dozen dives in.
When we'd get back together for DP they were solid and diving like a team.
We'd do one I guess you could call it refresher dive kinda shallow and the 1st part of the skills to critique anything.
2nd dive would be to 100 ft and do the required skills at that depth. Air share and emergency back up deployment.
Dives 3, 4 and 5 were actual decompression dives.
We did plan them using a lot of conservatism so that in actuality dive 3 could, if the stuff hit the fan, fall back on a no deco bailout. Never had that happen.
But 4 and 5 did not have that option even at the level of conservatism we were using.
Deco was required.
And the water temp at depth was usually in the low 40s.