Zero to Hero

[lermontov]

I didn't use the world elite, but I do think that the average skill level is higher than any other sub group in sport diving that anyone can join by taking a class.

i wouldn't disagree that the skill level is high - its the 'Top Gun' mindset culture that i find off-putting.

"pilots that take all the rules you learn in flight school and toss them out the window. They operate within their own rule set"

Cave divers are only a subset as you mentioned many are good within a narrow range of diving parameters but if you changed the rules - let's say remove all fixed lines then id wager youd find a whole lot of caver divers that would flounder. Theres a vast difference between following someone else's prior exploration than pioneering your own. Ive seen "experienced" cave divers struggle with OW dives and wreck penetrations because they are having to make decisions outside of their familiarity ( and im sure the reverse is true) Anyone who is pioneering new caves and tunnels with no knowledge from anyone else in regard to distances and depth etc ( and coming back alive) are in my view elite in their own right. Being a full cave qualified diver does not equal the best of the best, thats just glorifying a certificate

 

[happy-diver]

The funny part is, crop dusters are super complex, carrying massive loads, a turboprop engine and a completely reversible propellor. I have a multi-engine rating and more hours in the last six months than most private pilots get in a lifetime and I’d for sure bend up a crop duster.

It's good to see you've found somewhere

 

[Superlyte27]

i wouldn't disagree that the skill level is high - its the 'Top Gun' mindset culture that i find off-putting.

"pilots that take all the rules you learn in flight school and toss them out the window. They operate within their own rule set"

Cave divers are only a subset as you mentioned many are good within a narrow range of diving parameters but if you changed the rules - let's say remove all fixed lines then id wager youd find a whole lot of caver divers that would flounder. Theres a vast difference between following someone else's prior exploration than pioneering your own. Ive seen "experienced" cave divers struggle with OW dives and wreck penetrations because they are having to make decisions outside of their familiarity ( and im sure the reverse is true) Anyone who is pioneering new caves and tunnels with no knowledge from anyone else in regard to distances and depth etc ( and coming back alive) are in my view elite in their own right. Being a full cave qualified diver does not equal the best of the best, thats just glorifying a certificate

Not all cave divers are created equal.

 

[ginti]

Came across a guy's blog the other day about his journey from non-diver to CCR Cave within the span of 6 months, ending the year with 120 dives.

I can't deny that he's dedicated, and he's certainly very proud of his accomplishments. But at the same time I feel that there's so much that he hasn't yet experienced, for him to be training/diving to that level.

I am curious about the blog, do you still have the link?

 

[Manatee Diver]

Being a full cave qualified diver does not equal the best of the best, thats just glorifying a certificate

Again you are putting words in my mouth. While I do think that cave divers have a higher average basic skill set, I never said that they were the "best of the best." There is nothing that stops other diving groups from reaching the same level of skill simply that as a whole the cave instruction community is pretty good about maintaining high standards.

And of course if you throw a cave diver into a completely new situation they will flounder. But instead of having to work on basic skills they can concentrate on the new skills. It would be the same with the crop duster, throw him into a 787 simulator and he will be a fish out of water. But he can concentrate on learning systems and the differences between flying airliners vs bug smashers instead of basic flying skills.

As far as line running skills, running lines on rocks is a lot harder than running lines in a wreck. I do think that cave divers should practice it more, I forgot how hard it can be, the rocks are surprisingly slippery when you are running lines. And I agree that exploration divers are a much higher level than a newly minting full cave diver. But there isn't a course to become an exploration diver that is experience and mentor ship; so I wasn't really thinking about them when I made either of my last two statements.

 

[halocline]

When I started my cave training, neither myself nor the instructor had anything to say about how many days it would take for the various courses, which I took one at a time. It was 'the course takes however many days you need to fix any issues in your diving plus learn all the new skills.' There was also an evaluation of team diving awareness and communication. These basic things; buoyancy, propulsion, communication, awareness, take on increased importance in overhead environments, and ultimately are every bit as important as the conceptual understanding of the various techniques and protocols. And it takes a widely variable amount of time from student to student to address those basic issues.

Students come to cave training at a variety of levels in basic dive skills, not to mention proficiency, experience, and control in either doubles or sidemount. Someone coming into the Intro class with excellent buoyancy, trim, and propulsion skills in doubles is going to take less time than someone who needs work on those basic dive skills. I know I did, and as a result, intro took me more days (I think, I can't really remember) than full cave, even though there are obviously more skills and information in the full cave class.

I'm well versed in the world of progressive skill training (classical music), and the idea of building habit upon habit to acquire complex skills with precision control. So it seemed perfectly natural to me to approach cave training with the same 'who cares how long it takes' attitude. My two main instructors, Nat Gibb and Vince Rouquette-Cathala, were of a really similar mindset. It takes as long as it takes, and skill development is based on repetition.

One other thing that I believe is gained by a more progressive and non-time-determined approach to cave training is the instilling of continual learning as an attitude. Every dive, for me anyhow, is an opportunity to improve my diving in some way.

 

[Al Stevens]

I am a cave diver and don't think of myself as near elite. I think the deep divers, more than 60 meters, are in a class of there own. A lot of calculating for proper gas use an decompression times. Now combine cave and depth and your in another class. For me, Cave explorers are the elite.

 

[Superlyte27]

I am a cave diver and don't think of myself as near elite. I think the deep divers, more than 60 meters, are in a class of there own. A lot of calculating for proper gas use an decompression times. Now combine cave and depth and your in another class. For me, Cave explorers are the elite.

What about a cave explorer who has also been to 500’ Surely that guy is among the most elitist.

 

[Al Stevens]

What about a cave explorer who has also been to 500’ Surely that guy is among the most elitist.

Absolutely!

 

[Superlyte27]

Absolutely!

Incidentally, the rebreather I did that dive with is for sale