Yukon tangent thread

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That's all real nice, but it is, I fear, wishful thinking. It is perhaps the way the law should go, but it is not the way in which I've often seen it flow. Leaving a diver behind is an unusual event. Having a diver die is an unusual event. What do you think the odds are of having two such unusual events occur without a connection?

That, I suspect, would be enough to make the case.

Please keep in mind that I think it is an outrage that a diver would be left behind. I would be hard pressed to dive on a boat skippered by that captain and presided over by that DM. However, that does not mean I think there is liability.

Quite frankly, I think there is a very strong connection. However, based on a few educated guesses, i.e. air usage and size of tank, I suspect that the connection is that the boat left because the absent diver was dead on the bottom of the ocean.

As far as how things should go and how they do go, the legal system contains a lot of safeguards.

For example, before a trial, a defendant has the chance to file something called a "Motion for Summary Judgment." In it, the defendant presents what he or she contends are the undisputed material facts of the case. To call something an undisputed material fact, the defendant must identify admissible evidence, which, if believed, would support. Then, based on these, the defendant identifies the legal precedent, which, when applied to the undisputed material facts, would support a judgment in his or her favor. The plaintiff must then show either (1) that the facts presented by the defendant are not undisputed, (2) that even given the facts presented by the defendant, the legal precedent does not support a judgment in the defendant’s favor, or (3) that there are additional facts, which, under the precedent, would require a different result. In either disputing the defendant’s facts or presenting additional facts, the plaintiff must present admissible evidence, which if believed, would support the fact.

In terms of a defendant showing undisputed material facts that would support a judgment in his or her favor, in California, those facts could be as simple as that the plaintiff lacks evidence necessary to establish liability.

In the context of liability for leaving the deceased behind, this last bit about the defendant showing the plaintiff lacked evidence would be devastating to the plaintiff’s case. I cannot imagine how the plaintiff could proffer evidence that the deceased was alive at the point in time that the boat left. Perhaps the deceased’s dive computer will show movement and air in the tank at a given time, but I somehow doubt it.

The reason the summary judgment procedure is so powerful is that a judge and not a jury makes the decision and the judge is less likely to be swayed by passion or the outrage of a boat having left a diver behind.

In terms of the potency of the summary judgment procedure, here was a case in which a motorcycle rider was killed when the kickstand on his motorcycle caught the ground while he was going around a curve. His heirs sued the manufacturer. The manufacturer filed a motion for summary judgment in which it asserted that the kickstand wasn’t actually one of its kickstands, but rather was a defective knock-off. The manufacturer offered evidence from experts in which they examined things like the metallurgical composition of the kickstand and various facets of the way it was cast and machined. When compared to an authentic one, the experts said it was a knock-off. The plaintiff then had its experts run similar tests. The plaintiff’s experts opined that the variances between the kickstand on the bike and their samples was inconsequential and did not support the conclusion that the kickstand was a knock-off. The manufacturer responded that the plaintiff’s experts tests were not admissible as there was no evidence the kickstands they used for their tests were genuine, i.e. they were comparing knock-offs to other knock-offs. The plaintiff then responded that the kickstands their experts used for their tests were purchased at a motorcycle shop and had the manufacturer’s name on them. The court ruled (1) the presence of the manufacturer’s name on the samples meant nothing as knockoffs would have it, too; (2) the plaintiffs failed to prove their experts compared the kickstand on the motorcycle to the manufacturer’s product; (3) this failure meant that their experts’ opinions that the variances were inconsequential, were not admissible; (4) that there was no dispute over whether the kickstand was a knock-off; and (5) the manufacturer was not liable. Game over.

If this could happen in the motorcycle case, what could a plaintiff offer to show the diver was alive when the boat left?

Beyond all of this, on the issue of duty, which goes to whether the boat should have let the deceased dive alone, the existence of a duty is for the judge to make, not for the jury. So, again, the passion of the case is greatly reduced. And, given how much solo diving there is and that divers should know of the pros and cons of diving solo, if the deceased was an experienced diver, I could well imagine a judge finding there was no duty to have prevented the dive.

In short, I would expect the case to be disposed of without a jury ever getting close to it.
 
That's all real nice, but it is, I fear, wishful thinking. It is perhaps the way the law should go, but it is not the way in which I've often seen it flow. Leaving a diver behind is an unusual event. Having a diver die is an unusual event. What do you think the odds are of having two such unusual events occur without a connection?

It's easy enough to assume he got left behind because he was already dead.

That, I suspect, would be enough to make the case.

It's easy to file a compliant. Sometimes a bit harder to get that complaint past the summary judgment phase. That's where the judge (not a jury) will look at the law, facts, and circumstances and decide if there's enough there to bother a jury with. If clear evidence exists (computer logs) that the guy never surfaced, I'd bet that's where the case will end.


Edit: Bruce beat me to it and did a better job LOL!
 
I have yet to see a motion for summary judgment granted in a diving case, although such motions are routine and have been made in almost every case I've ever worked on. I'm sure that there is a case (or two) out there where this has happened, but it is very unusual.
 
I have yet to see a motion for summary judgment granted in a diving case, although such motions are routine and have been made in almost every case I've ever worked on. I'm sure that there is a case (or two) out there where this has happened, but it is very unusual.

Just curious, are you called as an expert in such cases?

It may be that the scuba related cases that are best suited for summary judgment may not require experts with your skills. If you are an expert in regulator failures, and that's not an issue, then you wouldn't be called in a case where a diver had a reg that worked perfectly...

Your area of expertise may place you in cases where the findings of fact are all up to the jury.

Just a guess though.
 
Just curious, are you called as an expert in such cases?

It may be that the scuba related cases that are best suited for summary judgment may not require experts with your skills. If you are an expert in regulator failures, and that's not an issue, then you wouldn't be called in a case where a diver had a reg that worked perfectly...

Your area of expertise may place you in cases where the findings of fact are all up to the jury.

Just a guess though.
That's possible, but you are assuming a level of sophistication that I've rarely seen on either the part of the plaintiffs' or defendants' lawyers.
 
That's possible, but you are assuming a level of sophistication that I've rarely seen on either the part of the plaintiffs' or defendants' lawyers.

Heh.

Good lawyers USUALLY stay away from BS cases, so it may be that you're just seeing the bottom of the barrel more often than not. :wink:
 
How many cases have you worked anyway?

On the plaintiff's side, even "good" lawyers are routinely sucked into poor cases, because they know little or nothing about diving. On the defense side there are a few lawyers, who know a lot about diving, who do all the defense work (though at least one of these chaps has "gone rogue" lately and is doing plaintiff work now).
 
First, let me apologize for implying the cases you are familiar with are BS, that was not my intention.

How many cases have you worked anyway?

Scuba cases? zero. Cases in general? Can't say. I was a cop for a while but have worked as a paralegal for a plaintiff's firm for the past 8 years. I'm guessing 350-500 civil cases, maybe 200 of which I was heavily involved with, the rest either petered-out, settled early or I just had very little to do with.

What is the basis for most of the cases you see? Is it negligence or something else like product liability? Seems like negligence would be very, very hard to prove in most cases.
 
I find it hard to believe anyone would urge you to watch someone bleed to death or drown just because you can't assist with the proper mind set. If I'm the victim and there is no one else to help me, I'd rather have you do your best and fail than do nothing.
I never said don't do anything. You are putting words in my mouth. I said if you can't perform in an emergency situation then let someone else do it. Hand off your responsibilities before you get someone hurt. That's the responsible thing to do that is even covered in high stress courses. One of a rescuers primary responsibilities is to cause no harm, and don't make the situation worse, besides his own personal safety kept in mind of course. Training in high stress environments is how we get used to performing with the adrenaline rush and don't make stupid mistakes like something as simple as giving responders your location or directions.

People who can't perform under stress would make better accountants, lawyers or fry chefs at McDonald's. Leave the stress to people who can take it.

That is absolutely absurd. Emergency situations are fraught with adrenaline and fear.
Again the person needs not just more but better training training. Try calling in directions while being shot at. When your life is at risk, not just while taking part in trying to save someone else. Completely different world of stress. Calling in indirect fire under such circumstances. You are saying that I would be so scared I would be too busy crapping my pants to do my job. Ridiculous. Calling in directions here could kill me and all of my platoon. We still did it, under stress mind you and didn't make stupid mistakes. Your argument that people cannot perform to their fullest in an emergency is a statement from someone who has never been trained correctly and never been tested.
 
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What is the basis for most of the cases you see? Is it negligence or something else like product liability? Seems like negligence would be very, very hard to prove in most cases.
Most of the cases I see involve negligence. Usually it is rather clear, dive guide takes diver with less than 10 dives to 170, runs out of air and abandons the rookie who also runs out of air and suffers an embolism on the way to the surface ... that sort of thing.
 
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