Yukon tangent thread

[Hetland]

I was notified of the buddy rule before my first day in the pool for my open water cert, so I consider that #1. Doesn't really matter that much, overall.

It matters.

1. Holding your breath while ascending WILL kill you.
2. Diving solo WILL NOT kill you. (no matter how much you scream about it).

That's the reason it's the number one rule. Actually, I was taught it was rule 1 through 3.

I can also say that 100% of my whopping 183 logged dives have been solo dives. I always dive solo, because I am the only one I can depend on 100% of the time. The fact that I sometimes have someone else in the water within a few fin kicks does not change the fact that I am diving solo.

I've had a camera with me for almost every one of those dives, and a speargun for maybe 40%. Sometimes I have a camera AND a speargun in my hands. I have yet to run out of air, suffer dcs, or soil my diapers. I have experienced equipment hiccups and failures, and dealt with them in ways that either resolved the problem, or kept me from being killed by my own solo-diving stupidity. I've also helped other divers with safety issues underwater, all while carrying a camera, or speargun, or both.

For some reason, you suffer a delusion that solo diving = death. I don't disagree that diving with a redundant scuba system, brain, and musculoskeletal system is SAFE-ER. But many, many people in this world execute solo dives all the time without suffering a fatality, and buddy groups kill each other often enough to prove that it's no guarantee of safety. The SAFEST divers I know, are the ones that treat EVERY dive as solo, and are comfortable with themselves underwater, even if other divers are not around.

You clearly have some issues with adults making informed decisions about their own safety. I'm sure the world would be a better place if you were in charge. You could take away our sharp scissors and fatty foods, and butterflies would spring forth from toilets everywhere, but you're not in charge, we're all adults here, and nobody needs you telling them that buddies are compulsory for scuba diving.

 

[Thalassamania]

Yes it was covered, but what's the point as you noted you are still talking about a pressure that is not breathable. So I am not really sure your point except posting the useless math. Do we really need to figure out how many breaths you can get out of 44.1 PSI which as you posted is way under the IP pressure so serves no use at all anyway. It sounds like you are trying to reinforce my post but I can't tell exactly. Or are you trying to lead someone to believe that you can squeeze a breath out of a tank at 14.7 PSI?

The math refresher was great though, good job.

But people still don't have it right. What remains in the tank should be Ambient Pressure plus Intermediate Pressure. As you ascend from 100 ft to the surface the Ambient Pressure will drop from about 3 atm gauge to 0 atm gauge. So upon arrival at the surface there should be about 3 atm of usable air in the cylinder. What is that in cubic feet, or minutes? You need tank information and SAC rate information for those answers. But as an example, assuming a 3000 PSI 80 (approx): (45/3000)*80=1.2 cubic feet of air that becomes available on the way up, unfortunately most of this gain will be in the shallower range.

 

[divemaster dave]

Any card. There are only two places I've been to that required the card: Cocoview in Roatan and Point Lobos in CA. Neither of which compared the card vs your dive plan. Why should the boat have to check cards? We are grownup and can make our own choices.

The same reason your card is supposed to get checked when you buy dive gear and get air fills. When a shop or boat facilitates a person into diving in a sport that requires a cert they are opening themselves up to liability. If a dive boat takes a diver to a site and gears them up and helps them in the water and they are not certified, don't you think that the boat would face tons of lawsuits. Dive plans on the other hand are the responsibility of the diver and not the boat. Here every certified diver is on their own and yes treated like an adult. But the local boats here if they visit a deep site require more advanced certs and will stop an OW diver from going.

This is the same reason when you show up to a drop zone (skydiving) they check to see if you are certified to jump and not some guy that thinks they can do it.
Every charter that I have dove in SD and that's all of them have checked C cards before letting you on the boat.

 

[Thalassamania]

It matters.

1. Holding your breath while ascending WILL kill you.
2. Diving solo WILL NOT kill you. (no matter how much you scream about it).

That's the reason it's the number one rule. Actually, I was taught it was rule 1 through 3.

I can also say that 100% of my whopping 183 logged dives have been solo dives. I always dive solo, because I am the only one I can depend on 100% of the time. The fact that I sometimes have someone else in the water within a few fin kicks does not change the fact that I am diving solo.

Perhaps in your crowd, the folks I dive with I can count on 100% of the time and they can count on me 100% of the time, and that's that way it has always been, for almost 15,000 dives.

I've had a camera with me for almost every one of those dives, and a speargun for maybe 40%. Sometimes I have a camera AND a speargun in my hands. I have yet to run out of air, suffer dcs, or soil my diapers. I have experienced equipment hiccups and failures, and dealt with them in ways that either resolved the problem, or kept me from being killed by my own solo-diving stupidity. I've also helped other divers with safety issues underwater, all while carrying a camera, or speargun, or both.

For some reason, you suffer a delusion that solo diving = death. I don't disagree that diving with a redundant scuba system, brain, and musculoskeletal system is SAFE-ER. But many, many people in this world execute solo dives all the time without suffering a fatality, and buddy groups kill each other often enough to prove that it's no guarantee of safety. The SAFEST divers I know, are the ones that treat EVERY dive as solo, and are comfortable with themselves underwater, even if other divers are not around.

You clearly have some issues with adults making informed decisions about their own safety. I'm sure the world would be a better place if you were in charge. You could take away our sharp scissors and fatty foods, and butterflies would spring forth from toilets everywhere, but you're not in charge, we're all adults here, and nobody needs you telling them that buddies are compulsory for scuba diving.

While no one can tell you what to do, we can tell you that your logic is partially faulty. The SAFEST divers I know are those who are complete capable of diving solo at all times, but who eschew doing so, and prefer to dive as part of a practiced and committed team (be that two or three divers).

 

[mikemill]

The same reason your card is supposed to get checked when you buy dive gear and get air fills. When a shop or boat facilitates a person into diving in a sport that requires a cert they are opening themselves up to liability. If a dive boat takes a diver to a site and gears them up and helps them in the water and they are not certified, don't you think that the boat would face tons of lawsuits.

Not a lawyer but no I don't think there would be a basis for a suit. The person held themselves out to be certified and if none of there actions gave the crew any indication that they weren't I don't see how the boat could be held liable. Again the waivers up here require you put down your cert information. So if you fabricated that piece of information than it is even less likely that the boat would be held liable. In the end the person was acting fraudulently and that isn't the boat's fault.

Dive plans on the other hand are the responsibility of the diver and not the boat. Here every certified diver is on their own and yes treated like an adult. But the local boats here if they visit a deep site require more advanced certs and will stop an OW diver from going.

Certification level doesn't always go hand in hand with experience. A OW diver with 1000 dives is going to be much better equipped to do the Yukon than a AOW with 20.

This is the same reason when you show up to a drop zone (skydiving) they check to see if you are certified to jump and not some guy that thinks they can do it.
Every charter that I have dove in SD and that's all of them have checked C cards before letting you on the boat.

See, this is why it is impossible to say what is typical of CA.

 

[Ken Kurtis]

Although I'm beginning to think this guy is "The Engineer" of the Troll Train, he asked:

Just out of curiosity, which page of the most recent NAUI S&P states the 200yd requirement?

(And I'm sure the snide tone that I percevie in your request is purely unintentional or misinterpretation on my part.)

Survey says . . . p. 2.27 of the current S&P (which has an initial copyright date of 1996, renewed as recently as 1/09):

Swimming. Confined or open water, no equipment.
• Swim a distance of 225 yards (207 m) nonstop, using any stroke.
• Survival swim for 10 minutes.
• Underwater, swim 50 feet (15 m) on one breath with no push-off or dive. The use of weights is permitted for students having difficulty remaining submerged. The use of a mask is permitted for students wearing contact lenses.

I will freely concede it's 225 yards, not 200 yards and if you'd like to quibble about that, quib away.

- Ken

 

[Thalassamania]

The same reason your card is supposed to get checked when you buy dive gear and get air fills. When a shop or boat facilitates a person into diving in a sport that requires a cert they are opening themselves up to liability. If a dive boat takes a diver to a site and gears them up and helps them in the water and they are not certified, don't you think that the boat would face tons of lawsuits. Dive plans on the other hand are the responsibility of the diver and not the boat. Here every certified diver is on their own and yes treated like an adult. But the local boats here if they visit a deep site require more advanced certs and will stop an OW diver from going.

This is the same reason when you show up to a drop zone (skydiving) they check to see if you are certified to jump and not some guy that thinks they can do it.
Every charter that I have dove in SD and that's all of them have checked C cards before letting you on the boat.

The strange reality of it all is there is likely less liability if the boat stays out of the certification question completely and views itself solely as a waterborne taxi service.

 

[divemaster dave]

Not a lawyer but no I don't think there would be a basis for a suit. The person held themselves out to be certified and if none of there actions gave the crew any indication that they weren't I don't see how the boat could be held liable. .

It seems that in this thread I we have to use analogies in order to try and get a point across. Would a rental car company rent a car to someone without a license? No there is liability. If that person lies and says they have a license but wrecks and kills someone be sure that the company that provided them with a vehicle would get sued. What will not hold up in court is oh the person told me they were certified, or they seemed familiar with scuba gear so they must be certified and therefore I let them dive. In fact the crew helped them into their gear and into the water. That almost sounds like assisted suicide. But I am not a lawyer either.

 

[divemaster dave]

It is good to know that you realize when you are in over your head on a dive.

I would be over my head cause I wouldn't want to deal with these types of morons on the boat. This type of cert check would be a good indicator that safety is not a top priority and bound to go down hill from there.

 

[Thalassamania]

Some legal types will argue that checking a credential and accepting it is tacit agreement that the credential represents an adequate qualification for the activity and thus if the participant gets hurt, due to circumstances that might be viewed as covered by this adequate qualification, those who checked the credential are open to a liability claim. I don't support or deny this view, I just know that it is out there and is accepted by many whose legal opinion I respect.