Your thoughts about visiting the Egyptian Red Sea

[Diver0001]

Just after the revolution I was in Egypt and the guys at the dive camp were showing a placard around that they had made. There were several names printed prominently on it so we naturally asked if those were the names of the guys who started the revolution. No, in fact they were the names of the guys who made the placard. LOL. That kind of humor is priceless.

I know I'm not American and I don't automatically make them suspicious but even the Americans I know who have traveled in Egypt have never told me that they got a poor reception. Incidents will always happen but they are incidents and I'd wager that even Americans are statistically safer walking around the streets of Cairo than they would be walking around the streets of New York.

There *are* people on Scubaboard who I would advise not to go to Egypt, not only for their own good but for the good other other tourists who follow them. They know who they are. They post almost exclusively in the PUB and they turn on the Fox channel before they eat breakfast in the morning. Mentality and respect count for a lot when you travel abroad. If you're a racist, loud-mouth, boor then, yeah. Stay home because you're going to get a dose of karma at some point.

I hate media scaremongering but I understand it. Rule #1 of propaganda is that if you make people afraid then they'll believe anything you tell them, which is what Bush wanted after 9-11 and it would appear that the American media are now stuck playing that card over and over again. If you want facts, then don't listen to the media. Really.

R..

 

[Crowley]

boulderjohn - thanks for your excellently eloquent and impassioned post - and before this gets into the inevitable America vs. Islam debate - I do truly understand. Two months ago, there was an insurgent-type car-bomb attack at the Israeli border which resulted in a lot of people being killed - and the American media were all over it of course, but so were some of the Europeans...! It happened during the Olympics, so it was relatively secondary news in the British media, but to read the German newspapers you'd think world war three had started!

Egypt is much more "westernised" than other countries in the region. There is a significant Coptic population and a lot of people who interpret the religion differently. I have Egyptian colleagues who are indeed Muslim and yet like to drink a beer with the guys at the end of the day. They ask for forgiveness later -
according to one of them, anyway - and actually, there are enough of this sort of religiously-minded people around to balance out the hardliners. The far right has been shouting a lot but they haven't got very far yet, although the new president did put up the price of alcohol, which really annoyed me.

A lot of Egyptian people are dependent on the tourist industry and again - there's enough voices in the crowds to keep the people who want to ban women from even existing are put in a corner and give them a few concessions - like increasing the price of the evil booze - made by an Egyptian brewery that supplies tourists. Millions of tourists. Almost exclusively

The situation is for sure not predictable - and really the Media does have a huge influence on perspective. The BBC were showig a map of the border bombing with a satellite map of the entire Sinai peninsula with only the following labels: Egypt; Sinai; Israel, then Cairo; El-Arish "BOMBING" and... Sharm El Sheikh. So, thanks for that, BBC, it's a whole other world away and yet what people saw on the TV was, Egypt, Israel, Bomb, Sharm El Sheikh.

I don't blame people for staying away. I hear Iraq is very beautiful at this time of year, full of ancient history and beautiful landscapes and most of it is not actually a hotbed of terrorism. Buy ya, I'm not planning to holiday there any time soon. I think a lot of Americans will stick with their guns just to be on the safe side, because there are confusing messages being placed in the media who boils down to: "my religion is better than yours." "No - Mine's better!" "No mine is!" "Noooo - I KILL you!" and a lot of Europeans - particularly families - are of course not coming to visit, because why take the risk, even if it is very small. I don't disagree with that philosophy.

I don't really want this to become a debate about the right or wrongs of this culture versus that culture, but the reasons people choose to visit or not are of great interest to me.

Cheers.

C

 

[Akimbo]

… I'd like to ask how past, present and potential visitors feel about coming to Egypt for their holidays. Even the non-diving package tourism...

I prefer to patronize countries that respect all Embassies.

 

[elmagnoon]

I went to Dahab with a couple of friends for three nights, 26-29. The first night we arrived there was clear tension between police and Bedouins and security was heightened. The following night Bedouins smashed up the police station and exchanged fire with police. Both sides were shooting in the air.
On the way back our bus along with other vehicles were stopped for a little more than an hour at Al Tor check point because there was shooting up a head. I didn't see the shooting.

Meanwhile business in Dahab was booming. Egyptians and foreigners alike jam packed hotels, restaurants and dive centers. Business is good.

---------- Post Merged on October 31st, 2012 at 09:58 AM ---------- Previous Post was on October 30th, 2012 at 11:20 AM ----------

Cars are not being shot at nightly in the Sinai - maybe in the little tiny town of El-Arish, which is close to the Israeli Border, and also technically located in the Sinai Peninsula - but this has been a problem for years. It's geographically not that far from Sharm, but it's a million miles away in terms of philosophy, and I do not agree at all with posts about how unsafe the Sinai has become.

Yes, there are problems. There is a fuel shortage, and our boats are running to Thistlegorm and back on diesel fumes and prayers. There has been a significant increase in "tourists touts", who sell uninsured trips for extortionate fees. Many taxi drivers are - to put it bluntly - criminals, given what they are charging for a 10 minute ride from the airport to the hotel.

Yes, there have been some kidnappings, nobody can deny that, and for sure there are problems on the roads between The South of Sinai and the North, but these are mostly internal struggles, and of no threat to regular tourism. Book through your hotels or travel agents, stick to the official tourist bit, and no worries, apart from a lot of un-necessary hassle in Na'ama Bay at night, all is well and good.

Solo female tourists - beware. There's no sugar-coating the fact that you will hear the incessant call of "sssss, sssssss, ssssss,... sex?" Taxi drivers will propose marriage and give you a free ride home in the hope that you will sleep with them. Unfortunately, a lot of foreign women in Sharm, particularly Russian ladies, are very free with their favours, shall we say, and therefore a lot of young Egyptian men here think that every woman will sleep with them for the price of a free drink. Or camel safari. Or Intro dive. Whatever.

My advice to single female travelers is to wear a ring on your wedding-finger, and use it as defense, especially if you claim to have an Egyptian husband. Verbal harassment is guaranteed, although physical contact is very rare, I do, however know of several cases where staff have been fired after being caught pleasuring themselves in the vicinity of scantily-clad women (true stories)

Otherwise, it's just business as usual.

Leaving aside where cars are being shot at or not, I'm interested to know what you mean by " it's a million miles away in terms of philosophy". Please expound on Sharm vs. El Arish philosophy.

 

[Crowley]

Thanks for your reply El Magnoon - especially since I was rather dismissive about your last post...

El Arish is a small town near the Israeli border which is inhabited mostly by hardline fundamental Islamists - the Al Nour party holds sway there. Pick a small village in Afghanistan or Iran or Syria - people who are mostly uneducated, with little access to media that is not sponsored by the state, whose entire lives revolve around their religion.

Sharm is a large town at the other end of Sinai that is exclusively based on tourism. Unlike Dahab, which is a rel place and an old trading post, Sharm exists only as a tourist resort. There are no "locals" here, other than those residents (both foreign and domestic) who have made a home here on the back of the tourist industry - but mostly the workers here come from Cairo or Alex or Suez, and many are pretty transient - come here to make a quick buck and hope a Russian lady offers sexual favours instead of extortionate taxi fare (true story) - and - I regularly stop taxi drivers who have no idea where I want to go - and this is not exactly a big city - there's only two main roads!

The constant hassle endemic in Sharm (and plenty of other tourist locations) is often, I think, based on this transience - people who've lived in the desert half their lives are suddenly confronted with semi-naked women and McDonalds - and maybe they came from a small town like El-Arish, just without the hardline bit; it's like the country boy going to the big city to find fame and fortune and uhuhh - wasn't the great Elvis Presley exactly one of those sort of guys? Tupelo to Las Vegas... Like El Q'sir to Cairo...! I'm sure there are small villages in "western" countries where eating red meat on a Friday is frowned upon, and maybe only a few hundred miles from Big City New York. I've met people who lived in these communities, including one wonderful Californian girl who grew up on a farm in California.... in Humboldt County, California...!

Bedouin are a problem but I could very easily draw a comparison between European settlers to the American Continents, and the Native American Indians, who were kinda there first. They've been displaced and discriminated against and whilst I do not for a second excuse their behaviour - they do have a right to complain. They have in recent months been hijacking gasoline supplies to Sharm - stopping the tankers, decanting all the gas into huge tanks held on the back of pickup trucks and then really bizarrely, paying the driver for the gas, so he goes back to Suez with an empty tanker and a full pocket. The Bedouin then sell it on to the gas stations. For the same price. That's weird.

The Bedouin are armed, we know that, and there have indeed been shootings, including the accidental shooting of a French tourist during a (failed) attempted robbery. I also understand that fatal shootings are a regular nightly occurrence in many cities around the world. I think it's right to be concerned about visiting Egypt, but there is no reason - as a tourist - not to do so.

Cheers

C.

 

[elmagnoon]

At the heart of it the vast majority of Muslims in Egypt and much of Arab countries (I'll speak only to what I know) are extremists by comparison. Their extremism is partly religious, partly old customs and mostly ignorance (often ignorance of religion itself) and lack of education. Putting aside their views on the US, and the fact that I personally view the US government's foreign policies as "evil", their views and beliefs on matters that affect day to day living is extreme and when I write "their" I of course do not mean all but the vast majority. The incident in Dahab that happened a few days ago where Bedouins attacked the local police station was all over a Bedouin girl running away with an Egyptian man (Bedouins believe they are not Egyptians and that Sinai is theirs). The police took the Egyptian man's father into custody for his own protection because the Bedouins wanted to kill him to avenge their honor.
When you talk to people about the fuel shortage problem they tell you the army should shoot any one caught smuggling fuel. Women who wear "sexy" clothing deserve to be harassed (by western standards sexually assaulted). Cars parked illegally should be confiscated and lit up on fire. Apostasy should be punished by death.
And that is not the scary part at least not in my view. I believe the break down of moral values and norms of behavior pose more danger to the country. Take the list that Crowley wrote:

Yes, there are problems. There is a fuel shortage, and our boats are running to Thistlegorm and back on diesel fumes and prayers. There has been a significant increase in "tourists touts", who sell uninsured trips for extortionate fees. Many taxi drivers are - to put it bluntly - criminals, given what they are charging for a 10 minute ride from the airport to the hotel.

Yes, there have been some kidnappings, nobody can deny that, and for sure there are problems on the roads between The South of Sinai and the North, but these are mostly internal struggles, and of no threat to regular tourism. Book through your hotels or travel agents, stick to the official tourist bit, and no worries, apart from a lot of un-necessary hassle in Na'ama Bay at night, all is well and good.

Solo female tourists - beware. There's no sugar-coating the fact that you will hear the incessant call of "sssss, sssssss, ssssss,... sex?" Taxi drivers will propose marriage and give you a free ride home in the hope that you will sleep with them. Unfortunately, a lot of foreign women in Sharm, particularly Russian ladies, are very free with their favours, shall we say, and therefore a lot of young Egyptian men here think that every woman will sleep with them for the price of a free drink. Or camel safari. Or Intro dive. Whatever.

My advice to single female travelers is to wear a ring on your wedding-finger, and use it as defense, especially if you claim to have an Egyptian husband. Verbal harassment is guaranteed, although physical contact is very rare, I do, however know of several cases where staff have been fired after being caught pleasuring themselves in the vicinity of scantily-clad women (true stories)

He basically described the complete break down of a society and the inability to distinguish right from wrong and then went on to write "Otherwise, it's just business as usual."!
You are right you may get yourself in a scenario that includes getting your head cutoff (metaphorically speaking) as a result of mob mentality and lawlessness not pure extremism. Islam as such is not in any way as scary as the inability to exercise "pure reason". An unfortunate result of the revolution is the realization that the police is weak and disorganized and that mob rules. To call it a jungle is to insult animals.
Now to stay somewhat on topic, to most lucky tourists " it's just business as usual." until it is not................ to the unlucky.

 

[koralrev]

So much for the so-called safety in Dahab
Army move in to protect Dahab police station - Daily News Egypt

 

[FMEVS]

Hi again,
We just came back from a 10 day trip with the kids, and our 2 cents after comparing with our previous 5 trips to Egypt :
- The liveaboard departure and return @ Port ghalib instead of Marsa Alam because of fuel shortage, so it added several hours of navigation as our ultimate destination was Satata in Fury Shoals
- The crew was oblivious to the situation, as long as the tourists continue coming...
- On our return to Port Ghab-lib, our Egyptian diveguide even managed to get us some beers.
- Discussions with drivers and guides in Marsa Alam, Edfou and Luxor showed that (truth or perceptions) troubles were very local in selected spots in Cairo and Sinai. Regarding daily life in our parts, the troubles were more related to a rather disorganised society where shortages were common. This will (?) ultimately lead to mob-like situation where corruption prevails and the black market imposes its rules. Lots of muscle flexions, and a perception of a Police getting weaker.
- We saw several gas stations with long queues, one which was several 100m long, others were empty, whereas some were functioning normally.
- Not once did we feel unsafe, even though we were with the kids (perhaps thanks to the kids). The difficulties was to get rid of the salespeople around the tourist attractions.

The most exceptional event was the rain pouring down in Luxor !

We all had a great time under water and on land.

 

[Agility]

I have been to Egypt three times this year, once to Hurghada (with Subex http://www.subex.org/index.php?Itemid=179) and twice to Marsa Alam (Riff-Villa Samak Willkommen in der Riff Villa Samak, Marsa Alam, Ägypten), especially the Riff-Villa has a great reputation as a place female solo travelling divers love return to.
I did not see any sign of violence, was treated very friendly by everyone, moved freely through Hurghada and Marsa Alam on my own and will return next year.

 

[macrobubble]

During the last days after Mursi established a new dictatorship, one worse than before under Mubarak, Egypt is all over the news again with reports of unrest, clashes and even the prospect of civil war. If you read the comments and reactions in european newspapers you can clearly see that tourism will dwindle further. Many potential visitors have stated that they will not come to Egypt again. The MB is wrecking the country, destroying not only the hope for democracy but the livelihood of millions of Egyptians in the process. They just don´t care! They want absolute power to establish an islamic state and rule with an iron fist. They don´t give a sh... about the people, human rights, freedom, justice and democracy.
I am not sure anymore that many of the foreign owned dive-centers and hotels will survive this. For the first time since the revolution I am fearing for my business and future here in Egypt...