Yet another "What tank to buy?" question

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Originally posted by Uncle Pug

Nate....
Now that you have got that off your chest....
Just go ahead and get the 300 bar DIN....
If you need 'splainin' let me know....

There's be no point in my getting the 300 bar DIN, see previous posts.

I can't get airfills with a 300 Bar, (I don't have a setup in my garage), and it doesn't provide any advantage over a 200 Bar valve.

Obviously, if you think I'm *completely* confused, please enlighten me.

I'm looking at a 200 Bar setup on E-Bay right now. :) :)


Nate
 
Originally posted by newton
I'm looking at a 200 Bar setup on E-Bay right now. :) :)
And.... that should tell you something....

Anyway, when have I ever lead you astray Nate?

Hmmmmm????

OK.... math time:

How many psi is 200 bar?

Will you ever have an opportunity to slap your reg onto a tank over 200 bar?

How do you spell *versatility*?

300 bar regs can be used on?

200 bar regs can be used on?

So I can use my 300 bar DIN regs on my LP 104 tanks of course... and on my friend's tanks that I borrowed with the 200 bar DIN (that he bought because he was in a hurry) and my other friend's HP100s with the 300 bar DIN and with the yoke valved AL80s that they have for the tourists to use....

Shoot... even my little argon bottle has got a 300 bar DIN.

(BTW... all DIN fill whips/adapters will work on 200 or 300 DIN...)
 
Originally posted by newton
Have I missed anything here:


300 Bar DIN valve
-----------------
Pros:
* More threads, so it has a stronger connection
* Can be used on HP tank safely

Cons:
* Requires DIN regulators
* Requires DIN for tank fills
It's my understanding that most ops have an adapter for that. If not, you can purchase one for around $27.00, if I remember correctly. Can any of our experts confirm this?

Originally posted by newton
I consider the 200 vs. 300 Bar valvues to be one of those religious issues, kind of like the 1/2" port on a 1st stage should never be used. (I'm with Uncle Pug when I say that the addition of a *single* static O-ring in the 1/2" -> 3/8" converter isn't going to make any difference. There's a much greater chance of getting hit by lighting as I crash my car into a tree that fell down because of old age on my way to the dive site.)
That's the same line of reasoning I used to reassure myself about the swivel on my first stage. I was convinced right up until the swivel blew...fortunately on the surface and not at depth.
 
Originally posted by Uncle Pug

Anyway, when have I ever lead you astray Nate?

That much I'll grant you!

How many psi is 200 bar?

Actually, the 200 Bar valves are actually 232 bar valves, which is around 3000 PSI.

Will you ever have an opportunity to slap your reg onto a tank over 200 bar?

Sure, but what my regulators can handle, and what my tank valve is are two different things. My regulators are either 300 BAR DIN valves *OR* yoke. I can switch between the two mostly safely in 5 minutes. (To be really safe, I have to go grab a torque wrench, which I don't normally carry with me in my Save-A-Dive kit.)

How do you spell *versatility*?

200/232 bar DIN tank valve, so that my tank can be filled by *ANYONE* (since I would carry the spin-in adapter with me at all times) which can be filled by anyone, and used by any regulator made. This makes my tanks absolutely versatile.

300 bar regs can be used on?

Everything, although using a 300 bar regulator with a yoke connector in HP is an accident waiting to happen.

200 bar regs can be used on?

Any non-HP tank made, assuming it has the right valve. If you've got a DIN reg, and the tank has a yoke valve, you may not be able to use your regulators on my tank (if they're yoke). This is a common occurance when on dive trips where you don't have the option to bring your tanks along.

So I can use my 300 bar DIN regs on my LP 104 tanks of course... and on my friend's tanks that I borrowed with the 200 bar DIN (that he bought because he was in a hurry) and my other friend's HP100s with the 300 bar DIN and with the yoke valved AL80s that they have for the tourists to use....

It appears you're talking about regulators. I'm talking about tank valves.

Shoot... even my little argon bottle has got a 300 bar DIN.

(BTW... all DIN fill whips/adapters will work on 200 or 300 DIN...)

And every regulator made today would fit on my tank. Also, because it's my tank, I wouldn't fill it to any pressure that would be unsafe, so my tanks are much more flexible than other tanks, similar to your regulators.

So, are we going to discuss tank valves, or regulators? :wink:


Nate
 
300 Bar DIN valve
-----------------
Pros:
* More threads, so it has a stronger connection
* Can be used on HP tank safely

Cons:
* Requires DIN regulators
* Requires DIN for tank fills


It's my understanding that most ops have an adapter for that. If not, you can purchase one for around $27.00, if I remember correctly. Can any of our experts confirm this?

There isn't a place with 250 miles of here that can fill a DIN-only tank. I proposed this to both LDS's here, and both said there was no demand, and were willing to accomodate me supplying if *I* supplied the adapter, and paid extra for the fills. I consider the hassle factor as far outweighting the upsides of a 300 Bar valve (if there are any in LP circumstances).

I consider the 200 vs. 300 Bar valvues to be on
of those religious issues, kind of like the 1/2" port on a 1st stage should never be used. (I'm with Uncle Pug when I say that the addition of a *single* static O-ring in the 1/2" -> 3/8" converter isn't going to make any difference.

That's the same line of reasoning I used to reassure myself about the swivel on my first stage. I was convinced right up until the swivel blew...fortunately on the surface and not at depth.

Notice I said STATIC O-ring. Dynamic O-rings, like used in swivels are a completely different animal. The O-ring in the plug in a port on your regular never moves, the same as the O-ring in the tank.

Dynamic O-rings should be avoided wherever possible, especially O-rings that are in constant use (like in a swivel), which I why none of my regulators have swivels in them anymore. (I just replaced a swivel in a 25 years SP Mk1 with a no-swivel head a month ago).

The swivel/no-swivel argument makes alot of sense to me.



Nate
 
Originally posted by newton
So, are we going to discuss tank valves, or regulators? :wink:
Now we are going to talk about tank valves....

Have you ever put one of your 300 bar DIN regs on a 200 bar DIN tank valve???

I have.... and the versatility of 300 bar DIN fittings allows me to do that... but I don't like it!

It gives me a very uneasy feeling to see all those threads exposed to potential damage when they could be nice ~n~ secure in a 300 bar DIN valve and adding to the strength of the lock up....

I think if I were going to consistently use a 200 bar DIN valve I would want to have a 200 bar DIN regulator fitting so that all the threads were locked down tight....

I want the connection between my valve body and first stage to not only be pressure proof but mechanically bullet proof!

And so do you Nate... so do you.

The price difference new is really no big deal if it exists at all....

The reason the 200 bar DINs are on ebay is because somebody screwed up and bought the wrong thing.....
And if 300 bar DINs show up on ebay they command a premium because that is the thing to buy.....

Now I don't know what it is you are buying, Tanks w/valves or valves or manifold....
But I do know that if you are going to put a 300 bar DIN regulator into a 200 bar DIN valve you will not be happy in the end result...
And Nate.... I want you to be happy :D
 
Originally posted by newton
There isn't a place with 250 miles of here that can fill a DIN-only tank. I proposed this to both LDS's here, and both said there was no demand, and were willing to accomodate me supplying if *I* supplied the adapter, and paid extra for the fills. I consider the hassle factor as far outweighting the upsides of a 300 Bar valve (if there are any in LP circumstances).
Now that is just plain LDS arrogance run a muck....

Adapters are cheap and I always carry one....
So are you planning on using your regulators with the yoke fitting cause the dive shop monkey is too lazy to screw the adaptor into the tank valve to fill it? Or do you have to take your tanks in with the inserts in the valve and then they will fill it and you take your inserts back out and use your DIN regs? Or can you screw your adapter in so they can fill it without charging you extra?!!!!

What city are you in??? Sounds like the LDSes need some edumucatin in *customer service*... or better yet some competition from a real dive shop.

Charge extra... harumpfff.. phhfffttt.. phtttewy..
 
Originally posted by Uncle Pug

Now we are going to talk about tank valves....

Have you ever put one of your 300 bar DIN regs on a 200 bar DIN tank valve???

I have.... and the versatility of 300 bar DIN fittings allows me to do that... but I don't like it!

It gives me a very uneasy feeling to see all those threads exposed to potential damage when they could be nice ~n~ secure in a 300 bar DIN valve and adding to the strength of the lock up....

I'm with you so far, although I'm not convinced of the strength thing. I've worked on enough mechanical stuff to know that 2-3 threads can hold thousands of pounds of stuff *IF* there isn't a lot of movement, and the 200 bar valves have more than 2-3 threads on them.

I also agree that it doens't look as nice to have the exposed threads, but again, I'm used to seeing that kind of things all the time, in situations where the threads are much more likely to get beat-up/wrecked.

I think if I were going to consistently use a 200 bar DIN valve I would want to have a 200 bar DIN regulator fitting so that all the threads were locked down tight....

Except then the regulators wouldn't be usable on a 300 Bar tank valve. Plus the fact that I don't think you can buy a 200 Bar regulator fitting anymore.

I want the connection between my valve body and first stage to not only be pressure proof but mechanically bullet proof!

And so do you Nate... so do you.

You're absolutely correct. And, I'm willing to bet that the 200 Bar is within a few thousands of a percent (.001%) as strong as 300 Bar connection.

The price difference new is really no big deal if it exists at all....

Actually, the price difference is actually rather high, because you can get the 200 Bar stuff *much* cheaper because the technical community has been convinced that 200 Bar == garbage and 300 Bar == Nirvana.

So, I'm more than willing to buy someone's barely used 200 Bar manifold for dirt cheap because they were convinced that the 300 Bar is the only 'safe' way to dive.

Besides, in my situation, the 300 Bar connection means I can't get air fills. :(

The reason the 200 bar DINs are on ebay is because somebody screwed up and bought the wrong thing.....
And if 300 bar DINs show up on ebay they command a premium because that is the thing to buy.....

See above. I don't think it's the wrong thing.

Now I don't know what it is you are buying, Tanks w/valves or valves or manifold....

Right now, I'm just looking at a manifold and/or two valves, if I can get them cheap enough. So far I haven't found any that would work on my Al tanks under $100 (yet) that weren't OMS valves.

I'm also not sure what size the threads are on a LP 95/104 (3/4" or 7/8"), so until I resolve that issue, I'm only partly serious about buying, since I'd like to be able to move the valves over to steel tanks in case I ever dive doubles. I'm trying to do things right (DIR :)) the first time, so I don't have to buy everything over again.

So far, I haven't felt too bad about any of the purchases I've made. (Well, maybe the shark-killer knife for my wife, but it was because I didn't know any better. :()

But I do know that if you are going to put a 300 bar DIN regulator into a 200 bar DIN valve you will not be happy in the end result...

Maybe, but I think I be even unhappier if I couldn't get air fills. :(

My goal in this posting was to someone like yourself to bring up considerations I hadn't thought of, and you've done that. As always, thanks for looking out for me!!!!



Nate

ps. Someone's birthday is coming up pretty soon, isn't it?
 
Nate I just spent a half hour composing a reply to you but they wouldn't let me use that many smilies and I lost it all ;-0

And it was really good too ;-0

Short version.....
Plus the fact that I don't think you can buy a 200 Bar regulator fitting anymore.
There is a reason.
 
Originally posted by newton

There isn't a place with 250 miles of here that can fill a DIN-only tank. I proposed this to both LDS's here, and both said there was no demand, and were willing to accomodate me supplying if *I* supplied the adapter, and paid extra for the fills. I consider the hassle factor as far outweighting the upsides of a 300 Bar valve (if there are any in LP circumstances).
Ouch! Yet another entry for the LDS Hall of Shame.

How much extra were they trying to soak you for?

Originally posted by newton

Notice I said STATIC O-ring.
Note to self: read carefully before responding. :)
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/peregrine/

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