XS Scuba manifolds with engravings vs HOG manifolds without.

[SparticleBrane]

I, for one, am glad that these valves now warn you about what should and shouldn't go in them.

Haven't you heard the news? Hundreds of people are blowing themselves up every day by putting O2 into cylinders with valves that don't have these warnings, simply because they didn't know any better. If only there were something written on the valve to tell them otherwise!

It's all over the news -- every channel, and front page on every newspaper nationwide. Thank goodness XS Scuba has come up with a solution to this scourge on mankind. It's such a problem these days. Why just last week, I lost 5 friends to exploding O2 cylinders. :depressed: Another 18 died the week before that. :shocked2: But ever since XS started marking their valves like this, these useless deaths have dropped to zero! Thanks XS Scuba!:d


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Seriously, this is a solution in search of a problem. Although I suppose I now have a new solution for when I need valves: don't buy valves from companies that do stupid crap like this. I love my Thermo valves; they work nicely but I guess I won't buy any more of them. DiveGearExpress has an in-house brand of valves and manifolds for quite a bit cheaper than Thermo, without these engraved warnings. They also have service kits readily available. Looks like I'm buying that brand from now on.

 

[DiveGearExpress]

Our new article may help more fully explain the issues...

[h=1]WHY IS "40% MAX OXYGEN PREMIXED" LABELED ON THERMO VALVES?[/h]

 

[diverintheflesh]

I deco off 50%... a little less expensive and don't mind the few extra minutes in the water. I also haven't seen oxidation issues with any equipment if an O2 service kit isn't used. the place I go to uses a booster so they don't have to PP blend.

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---------- Post added June 22nd, 2015 at 07:10 AM ----------

Thanks for all the replies!

Aside from the CYA disclaimers given by manufacturers, do you think there might be any practical difference between the valves currently on the market with respect to safety, when used with 100% O2?

I'm just reading through Vance Harlow's Oxygen Hacker's Companion, and it states that "Many techs recommend against using Thermo valves with 100% because they are very fast opening". That was written in 2009, five years ago. Has anything changed?

I also hear (from other sources) that Thermo are still the valve of choice, and/or that all valves are, in reality, basically identical, because they ultimately all come from the same factory. There are plenty of conflicting opinions out there...

I do realize that, as already pointed out above, no scuba valve is technically O2 compatible due to sharp turns, nylon seats, fast opening, etc., and I just wonder if there is any meaningful difference between what is on the market.

I'm mostly wondering here about a valve to use on the 100% O2 deco tank (AL40). I have here an "old stock" thermo currently dedicated for that purpose. The O2 Hacker's companion points out that small tanks are especially tricky to handle, because they provide less of a cushion, and I'm going to be taking the risk every time I turn the valve, not just during a gas fill...

Thoughts?

I used to have an AL40 for 100% O2... never had issues OR explosions...

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[WhiteSands]

I didn't read the replies but I am guessing "AIR ONLY" could mean they might be using consumables (o-rings, seals, etc.) that may not be O2 compatible, and using lubricants that are not O2 safe.

When a tank starts to corrode on the inside, material could flake off (or little bits fall off). At high pressures and in high O2 atmospheres, these little bits traveling at high speeds could causes combustion. If the manifold o-rings and other soft parts are not made of O2 compatible material, they will burn even when the flame source is removed.

I am guessing that is why it says AIR ONLY.

 

[Dr. Lecter]

I am guessing that is why it says AIR ONLY.

You guess wrong. It says AIR ONLY because a manufacturer has decided to cover its ass in the face of a legal definition of "pure oxygen" that, for the relatively low pressures of SCUBA tanks/valves, is of dubious legal applicability and demonstrably negative practical applicability. Not sure why the DGX article spent so many words just to say 'some professional association moron decided to make up a stupid label and we're afraid some ambulance chaser might sell a jury of mouth breathers on the idea that SCUBA falls within its ambit.'

 

[Slamfire]

Two days ago I bought a Worthington al40. The shop owner had the intention to put in an etched thermo valve in it. Luckily he put the valve in my hands before actually screwing it into the tank. While in my hands I noted that the new valve has clear lubrication on the threads and the tank neck o ring. This lubrication felt more like silicone grease and nothing like Christo. So I stopped him and told him I would do the assembly myself. The cylinder came with a sticker that says it is o2 clean. I went back to my garage and after doing a vis inspection myself, I screwed in one of my spare o2 clean old thermo valves and proceeded to decant some pure o2 into it.

I'll put the valve with the offending etched message into a dry suit inflation al13. From now to eternity said valve is henceforth condemned to dry suit duty.

 

[diverintheflesh]

So what is this going to do to rebreather divers? I think people will start sanding off those markings if they become a problem...

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[WhiteSands]

You guess wrong. It says AIR ONLY because a manufacturer has decided to cover its ass in the face of a legal definition of "pure oxygen" that, for the relatively low pressures of SCUBA tanks/valves, is of dubious legal applicability and demonstrably negative practical applicability. Not sure why the DGX article spent so many words just to say 'some professional association moron decided to make up a stupid label and we're afraid some ambulance chaser might sell a jury of mouth breathers on the idea that SCUBA falls within its ambit.'

May I ask why you believe that it's just a case of "covering ass" and not that there is a real danger in using high O2 content gases with non-O2 compatible & O2 clean parts? In every other industry the threshold for O2 compatible/clean equipment is 25% O2.

These so-called "professional association morons" just happen to be professional engineers who spent years of their lives studying and working with this stuff on a daily basis, and probably get to see the photos of all the accidents that happen. I was shown a few of these accident photos (1st stage and entire tank valves melted down) when I took the O2 tech certification, so I do believe there is more to it then just legal ass covering.

 

[cool_hardware52]

If the engraved manifold were all I could source I'd buff out the "Air Only" and have them stripped and re plated.

Tobin

 

[Dr. Lecter]

May I ask why you believe that it's just a case of "covering ass" and not that there is a real danger in using high O2 content gases with non-O2 compatible & O2 clean parts?

Because despite our near-constant filling, boosting, and blending of 100% O2, a shockingly large percentage of tech divers die of causes other than O2 fire/explosion. And as far as I know not one single case exists of O2 fire/explosion where the "pure O2" involved was 40% EAN or less (setting aside any from the early days of titanium 1st stage regs).

The only examples that come to my mind involve (1) mishaps with bottles actual pure O2, or (2) boosting actual pure O2. The former leads me to believe that the most dangerous part of my O2 handling is carrying O2 bottles to my truck and loading them for transport, while the latter is enough to convince me that boosters deserve meticulous O2 cleaning even if bottles, valves, and regs only merit best available practices (clean/rinse plus O2 compatible lube and o-rings). To be clear, I do not dismiss the importance of making one's equipment as O2 clean as reasonably possible--I'm only saying that that plus doing everything with actual pure O2 as slowly as possible is as good as we need to get. The idea that a well-built, O2-lubed, and viton O-ringed Thermo valve should have AIR ONLY engraved on it is utter bull, even allowing that the valve design and seat material are not ideal for O2 use.

In every other industry the threshold for O2 compatible/clean equipment is 25% O2.

SCUBA is not an industry. Industries that use these standards (being charitable and setting aside the possibility they are in turn being forced to take ridiculous precautions because OSHA) are working with gas at pressure ranges that include a high end never even approached in the most reckless of gas boosters' shops. What's sensible for their applications is not necessarily sensible for ours, and many years of successful O2 use by SCUBA divers shows the ridiculousness of insisting that nitrox=pure O2.