Wrestling with drysuit buoyancy - update

[RIdiverMike]

Well I keep plugging along with my drysuit, but I'm still plagued by a difficulty (and often an inability) to vent air and a crotch squeeze that I can't seem to affect at all. When I posted last week, a number of folks pointed out the physics, i.e., get the exhaust to the highest point and I must be diving with legs down, not horizontal re the crotch squeeze. Very logical points.

Since I often feel the "floaty feet" and have had many uncontrolled ascents (in fact most of them are uncontrolled), decided I'd use that experience to see whether I could at least release the crotch squeeze. So yesterday at a point in the dive (about 30 ft) when I began to feel my feet floating, I tapped the inflator and allowed myself to invert fully and clung to a wall. Although I had air in the feet, it must be bypassing the crotch cuz that didn't release at all, even though I was literally upside down. So I guess I conclude that swimming position is not the issue.

I tried loosening the BC shoulder straps and waist band but that didn't help. I also remeasured everything to check things like crotch to floor - all seemed fine. I have no particular difficulty or tightness with bending over and touching my toes.

Some other things:
-I crouch and vent the air from my suit just after I zip it up and before I put on the bc/tank. I think I have very little air in the suit when I enter the water.
-Yesterday I had my S119, Seaquest jacket bc, DUI TLS350 with turbo soles and 10 lbs of weight. I'm 6ft, 175; reasonably thin - no Buddha belly. I wore Under Armor, top and bottom plus an extra polypro top. And then a Pinnacle fleece all-in-one (it's light - about 100gms). 7mil dry hood and 7mil gloves.
-Despite burping the suit on land (first point above), I still noticed some air in the sleeves when I entered the water, so I squeezed that out before descending. I had no air in the BC. So as best as I could tell, I descended with close to zero air in the suit and BC.
-As I descended to about 35 ft, I hit the drysuit inflator for 3 one-half second bursts (in total, not each time): once at 9 ft, once at about 25 and once at 35. I also added similarly small bursts to my bc: once at 15 and once at about 30. All of this was before I tried my inverted experiment.

Could of course be wrong, but my perception is that I'm not overweighted and that I'm not putting too much air into the suit. In fact if anything (and excluding my little experiment), I think I'm putting too little air in the suit.

Left to try from last week's suggestions:
-soaking the exhaust valve - maybe it's sticky and that's why it doesn't vent easily
-stretching out the suit on the surface before descending, aka, the "Raul maneuver".

If anything else strikes the readers, I'm all ears and appreciative of everyone's time and suggestions!

In the meantime I'm limiting depths to 35-40 ft, partially since I have zero confidence that I can control the ascents at all and partially because I feel if I go much deeper, my groin will be crushed! I've had numerous inverted uncontrolled ascents, including one from 50 ft when the air in my feet popped my fins off and my reg flooded. So long as I don't hold my breath, I'm assuming rapid ascents (anywhere from 70-100 ft/min) from 35 ft won't kill me.

I admit to frustration; feels like my very first dives or something, instead of the actual 300th. But those are wetsuit dives! I've had my PADI drysuit course instructor as well as several friends who only dive dry check me out and so far they can't figure it out either. I'll keep on plugging - but only in shallow water!

Thx!

 

[horsediver1]

The one issue you might be overlooking is the fleece. If you have rather tight fitting sleeves the fleece may be blocking the exhaust. Try a nylon thinsulate jacket as this will not get sucked up into the valve. This is actually a rather common occurance on some fits of drysuits especially as you flex your biceps while raising your arm and pushing on the deflator.

hope this helps

Enjoy

 

[TSandM]

It sounds to me as though the squeeze issue is not putting enough gas in the suit. When I descend, I pretty much put some air in the suit every time I clear my ears, and that's a lot more than three times on the way down to 35 feet.

With regards to the feet-first ascents: First off, are you using rock boots? If not, are you using fin keepers? I have TurboSoles on my suit, and I find that, with the combination of finkeepers and the Velcro band around the ankle, I can control the amount of gas in my feet pretty well.

Second, if you get light in the suit, what position are you assuming to deal with it? When I was a newer diver, I'd get light, have air in my feet, and try to swim down -- of course, thus putting the dump valve on the suit at the lowest point. It never worked very well, and did result in some uncontrolled feet-first ascents.

My final thought is that, reading the description of how you descend, I wonder if you have weighted yourself too carefully. If you weight yourself just perfectly with an absolutely empty BC and suit, then you've committed yourself to achieving that state at the end of a dive. It can be very difficult to get a suit as empty, while you are diving, as it is after you have been standing or hanging vertical in the water for a while at the beginning. I have found that adding about two pounds means I only need to get the suit to a "comfortable" degree of emptiness, which means I'm warmer at the end of the dive, and also have a great ability to vent some gas if I need to. (And should release some of that crotch squeeze, too!)

The combination of being uncomfortably squeezed AND overly buoyant can only be explained, in my (admittedly pretty simple) mind by being underweighted.

 

[Lobzilla]

Well I keep plugging along with my drysuit, but I'm still plagued by a difficulty (and often an inability) to vent air and a crotch squeeze that I can't seem to affect at all. When I posted last week, a number of folks pointed out the physics, i.e., get the exhaust to the highest point and I must be diving with legs down, not horizontal re the crotch squeeze. Very logical points.

Since I often feel the "floaty feet" and have had many uncontrolled ascents (in fact most of them are uncontrolled), decided I'd use that experience to see whether I could at least release the crotch squeeze. So yesterday at a point in the dive (about 30 ft) when I began to feel my feet floating, I tapped the inflator and allowed myself to invert fully and clung to a wall. Although I had air in the feet, it must be bypassing the crotch cuz that didn't release at all, even though I was literally upside down. So I guess I conclude that swimming position is not the issue.

I tried loosening the BC shoulder straps and waist band but that didn't help. I also remeasured everything to check things like crotch to floor - all seemed fine. I have no particular difficulty or tightness with bending over and touching my toes.

Some other things:
-I crouch and vent the air from my suit just after I zip it up and before I put on the bc/tank. I think I have very little air in the suit when I enter the water.
-Yesterday I had my S119, Seaquest jacket bc, DUI TLS350 with turbo soles and 10 lbs of weight. I'm 6ft, 175; reasonably thin - no Buddha belly. I wore Under Armor, top and bottom plus an extra polypro top. And then a Pinnacle fleece all-in-one (it's light - about 100gms). 7mil dry hood and 7mil gloves.
-Despite burping the suit on land (first point above), I still noticed some air in the sleeves when I entered the water, so I squeezed that out before descending. I had no air in the BC. So as best as I could tell, I descended with close to zero air in the suit and BC.
-As I descended to about 35 ft, I hit the drysuit inflator for 3 one-half second bursts (in total, not each time): once at 9 ft, once at about 25 and once at 35. I also added similarly small bursts to my bc: once at 15 and once at about 30. All of this was before I tried my inverted experiment.

Could of course be wrong, but my perception is that I'm not overweighted and that I'm not putting too much air into the suit. In fact if anything (and excluding my little experiment), I think I'm putting too little air in the suit.

Left to try from last week's suggestions:
-soaking the exhaust valve - maybe it's sticky and that's why it doesn't vent easily
-stretching out the suit on the surface before descending, aka, the "Raul maneuver".

If anything else strikes the readers, I'm all ears and appreciative of everyone's time and suggestions!

In the meantime I'm limiting depths to 35-40 ft, partially since I have zero confidence that I can control the ascents at all and partially because I feel if I go much deeper, my groin will be crushed! I've had numerous inverted uncontrolled ascents, including one from 50 ft when the air in my feet popped my fins off and my reg flooded. So long as I don't hold my breath, I'm assuming rapid ascents (anywhere from 70-100 ft/min) from 35 ft won't kill me.

I admit to frustration; feels like my very first dives or something, instead of the actual 300th. But those are wetsuit dives! I've had my PADI drysuit course instructor as well as several friends who only dive dry check me out and so far they can't figure it out either. I'll keep on plugging - but only in shallow water!

Thx!

I feel your pain as I went to similar sobering experiences when trying to switch to dry as you can read here

My problem was the wrong approach to the challenge. I assumed that I can 'nail' this drysuit thing in a handful of dives and move on. I fell victim to the illusion of instant gratification.

A guy I met in a workshop with Ed Hayes (GUE) told me last week that it took him almost a year to be absolutely comfortable in a drysuit. This guy is cave certified, dives a lot, is extremely solid in his skills, and has 3 drysuits to choose from.

After his comment I reframed my attitude. I now look at this drysuit as a source of entertainment and amazement for the next 50 dives. During these dives I may not even have to catch any lobsters to avoid boredom; I have the suit to mess with.

And suddenly, the suit is worth much more than it costs

On the practical side: Verify that the exhaust valves does not stick and is not clogged by the undergarment. Make sure that the valve is the highest part when you need to dump air. (I did hold my underarm higher on the first dive and ended up with a bubble there but nothing coming out of the valve.) Start with the thinnest undergarment you can tolerate. If you are 'overstuffed' you have to counter-weigh and fight that residual buoyancy or get uncomfortably squeezed to reduce unwanted buoyancy.

 

[kathydee]

Hi Mike,

I feel your pain. I had about 200 warm water wet suit dives when I really tried to learn the drysuit - and had many, many frustrating DS dives.

Perhaps I can offer a little advice and hope from my own long journey into drysuit diving. First of all – don’t be put off by those who claim to hop in a drysuit and find it as easy to dive as wet – that wasn’t my experience.

The Padi drysuit class offered an orientation but I certainly didn’t leave with enough skill to resume my normal diving, so spent many, many dives in less than 30ft and in the pool. After 80 DS dives I found out certain aspects of my drysuit were prolonging the learning curb.

Here are a few things to consider:

Which fins are you diving? I found Jet fins are heavy enough to help prevent floaty feet, while my old split fins were not.

Which dump valve is installed on your TLS 350? The low profile Apex is stock & a PITA to dump. When I swapped to a high profile Apex, many of the venting issues evaporated – others have had the same experience. SiTech valves are also nice.

Does the suit fit? Did you purchase it new? Perhaps you should check in with a local dealer to confirm fit? A poor fitting suit can cause all kinds of challenges.

On another note, many DS divers find a BP/W set up nice to help distribute weight and help hold a trim position in water. Could be helpful?

I struggled along for quite some time before taking GUE Fundamentals & learning tips which made drysuit diving so much easier. I can’t tell you how many times during that class I shook my head wishing I had learned the simple technique from the start & saved so much frustration.

To expedite the learning curb, you may want to consider tracking down your local GUE instructor and inquiring about a drysuit class. Have heard many good things about Bob Sherwood: GUE Instructor résumé | Global Underwater Explorers . I’m absolutely certain he can efficiently sort out equipment, weighting and technique issues which will greatly accelerate your learning process.

I complained, cried and dreamed of warm clear water, but didn’t give up on the drysuit. Then one day, after taking GUE Fundamentals, picking up a well fitting suit and swapping out the dump valve, it suddenly all came together.

Now, 240 drysuit dives later, it’s just as natural to dive dry as it once was to dive wet and much warmer ;-). I love my TLS350 so much - found myself opting to dive dry in 76F last summer

Good luck!

 

[TSandM]

After his comment I reframed my attitude. I now look at this drysuit as a source of entertainment and amazement for the next 50 dives. During these dives I may not even have to catch any lobsters to avoid boredom; I have the suit to mess with.

Lobzilla, this goes in my top twenty ScubaBoard posts! What a fantastic attitude.

I think a lot of people underestimate the complexity of handling a dry suit. For those who are naturals and for whom it comes easily, great. For the rest of us, the suits can sometimes seem like malicious, sentient entities with a goal of ensuring their owners have gas embolisms, or simply die of humiliation after the umpteeth feet-first ascent.

Since I started in one, I didn't know if it was my sucky dive skills in general (which was certainly part of it) or whether it was the drysuit in specific, but I fought with the thing. Today, I dive dry everywhere, even where I could be reasonably comfortable diving wet. I've learned to truly LOVE my drysuit . . . but it took a while

 

[Lobzilla]

Hi Mike,
<snip>

To expedite the learning curb, you may want to consider tracking down your local GUE instructor and inquiring about a drysuit class. Have heard many good things about Bob Sherwood: GUE Instructor résumé | Global Underwater Explorers . I&#8217;m absolutely certain he can efficiently sort out equipment, weighting and technique issues which will greatly accelerate your learning process.

<snip>

Good point. Why re-invent the wheel when someone can hand you the solution?

RIdiverMike, let me know if you need others to fill the class. I am in your area.

<snip>
I've had numerous inverted uncontrolled ascents, including one from 50 ft when the air in my feet popped my fins off and my reg flooded. So long as I don't hold my breath, I'm assuming rapid ascents (anywhere from 70-100 ft/min) from 35 ft won't kill me.

I admit to frustration.

On this issue I took a good quote home from Ed Hayes: "Do not get frustrated, get mad, and then get even".
There are times when you have to fight for your life and a runaway ascent is one of those times. If your feet already did a number on you do not let the expanding air bubble follow suit (no pun intended).

When your feet escape you beyond a chance of immediate(!) recovery start kicking right then. Vigorously -- you are heading in the right direction. Possibly dump air from your BC if you have a butt dump. Compress the bubble and then perform the tuck and roll maneuver to get your feet back down.

Do not let an excursion from your desired attitude develop into a full-blown loss of control scenario. You are the 'Diver In Command' not the suit.

Rockboots or, in your case, ankle straps will reduce the likeliness of losing your fins, which is a serious problem that needs to be avoided.

I hope that some instructors will chime in about the finer details but I am certain to be correct about maintaining positive control, whatever it takes.

 

[ScubaVideo]

So long as I don't hold my breath, I'm assuming rapid ascents (anywhere from 70-100 ft/min) from 35 ft won't kill me.

Why would you assume that rapid ascent rates at 2 to 3 times the rate of 30ft/min won't kill you?

I can't say I have any experience with a DS as I just purchased my TLS350 and am waiting for my class. But 10 lbs for a 175lb diver with a S119 seems under weighted to me.

Instead of risking your life with involuntarily practicing feet up ascents, add some weight. Start with some ankle weights until you get the hang of the DS. Have you tried some gators?

When I bought my DUI they said I might need to add some weight - not remove it. Guess it depends on how much thermal protection one has.

My very experienced roommate has always dove DS and has been diving East Coast wrecks since 1967 told me that he could use 10lbs, with doubles (100's) and he is smaller than you.

So I really think your trying to be too lite and to not look like a noob by skipping ankle weights and gators.

I use ankle weights even in a wetsuit to distribute my weight better and keep my feet under the surface better while snorkeling to and from sites. A 7mm WS wrapped around my calves floats my legs easily. I'm pretty sure air in a DS will do the same.

 

[Selchie in LB]

Thank you all for your insightful posts. Being in So Cal lots of folks dive dry. Now that I'm hanging out with the GUE crowd it looks like my diving will head in that direction. They all make DS diving look easy (well actually they make everything about diving look easy!) I have been told definitely take a class. I will when the time comes, but it is good to hear the realistic side of the story.

BTW, if you can Bob Sherwood to teach you anything, you will be amazed! The guy is amazing and down to earth. He lives, eats, breathes, dives GUE and loves to share his techniques to improve anyones diving skills.

 

[Lobzilla]

I am consistently bad following the RTFM (Read The Frigging Manual) rule.

For those that suffer the same habit here is the DUI manual . It pretty much sums it up what was suggested so far.