Wreck v Cave Diving

[tursiops]

I have just one answer to that from Bruno Borelli (GUE Tech 2 instructor (not cave)... and it might surprise you )

https://vimeo.com/130793381

I'm unable to get this video to run. Is there some trick?

 

[jhh]

I'm unable to get this video to run. Is there some trick?

Embedding Vimeo videos is sort of hit or miss - here's the link: vimeo.com/130793381

 

[beester]

Just a small point, but to remind that there is more than one single 'wreck community'. Wreck diving isn't limited to NE USA, just as cave diving isn't limited to Florida or Mexico. It's a big, wide, world out there...

Exactly. I was a wreckdiver first, doing the local North Sea wrecks (lots and lots of them in our part of the woods, and not so deep = 110-170ft range, but with silty, sandy bottoms so vis not so good). And I still do, every summer, every weekend is booked to go out on the wrecks (if it's not blown out). Some penetration, some cleaning out wrecks (ghostfishing project). Growing up with divers and having a history background/education means I'll always be fascinated by them. First love you know ;-)

But back in 2008 I got a very close call in a wreck, getting caught with a buddy. We managed to free ourselves and get out, but the margin was very thin. So thin I was really thinking to stop diving. This started me on the GUE route (which is not as some say here the monolistic follow us or die organisation). I ended up doing caves as well.

What I like about caves is the fact that they are stable and it's very easy to do "big" dives. You can leasurely setup the dive, get everything ready and just do the dive. This weekend I was going to go to French caves (Lot region) but conditions are very bad, with water pumping out. So I won't go... this happens maybe once every 3 years... that I plan to go and have to cancel because it's not feasible to dive. When it comes to North Sea wrecks, 40% of the planned weekends are blown out. So you've filled up with Tx, everything is ready to go and then you get the call from the skipper saying, sorry mate not this weekend.

But the rewards can be so nice... finding out more about a UCII WW1 submarine minelayer, diving it time and time again, ... it's just plain fun.

Coming to skills I do honestly believe that for me personally I learned more on overhead diving doing C1 and C2 than diving wrecks and use more of those skills also in wreck diving than the other way around. When it comes purely to wreck penetration diving I think a full cave diver will be quite at ease and not outside his training doing this. You can learn wreck specifics by experience (layout of wreck, IDing a wreck, recognising, specific dangers like instability, silt out, navigational errors), but I don't think you can learn cave specifics as easy as wrecks, because of the benign nature of caves. You can easily get yourself over your head in a cave, not so in a wreck, there it's much more clear what the dangers are.

What you can't learn in cave-courses is all the stuff surrounding wreckdiving, not specific penetration. Boating, boating logistics, how to handle yourself easily on a boat, how to equip yourself with all that gear on a swinging boat, sea-sickness, currents, descend strategies, ascend strategies, deco on the line, drifting deco, etc, etc... that of course you can never learn on a cave course and is an integral part of wreckdiving. I've had guys in my CMAS club interested in cave diving... and I would just say, get your basic skills right and just go and get the training. When a guy is interested in wreck diving, I'll take him on an easy wreck and just see if he can literally "stomach" it (getting up early, all the logistics, seasickness, diesel fumes, etc)... Nothing better than standing winddown of someone puking and getting the stuff in your face, to realise what a lot of fun this wreckdiving is ;-)

In the end my caving friends always say I talk too much about wrecks and my wreck friends that I talk too much about caves

 

[Jack Hammer]

That's bull**** - it was 1992.

Trimix started being taught in the cave community in 1987, in 1991 Billy Deans was treaching it in the wreck community, and IANTD had established course standards.


.

Mike Nelson was promoting trimix back in 1958...[emoji6]




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[Nasser]

Just a small point, but to remind that there is more than one single 'wreck community'. Wreck diving isn't limited to NE USA, just as cave diving isn't limited to Florida or Mexico. It's a big, wide, world out there...

That's exactly why I specified USA - to indicate that was relevant to that specific country. I live by the Red Sea so I'm quite aware of other Wreck and Cave communities.

 

[tbone1004]

One of the things I love about diving is the challenge of developing new skills and becoming a better diver. The new year always gets me thinking about new goals. I am in the process of completing my tec certification. As I look to next steps I am debating whether to go wreck or cave. Here are my questions:

Background: 300+ dives; PADI rescueSolo cert; Tec 50, now diving BM 95s

Let's assume you can only do one and the instructors for both are equal.

1-What is the better training? Wreck or cave? Why?

2-Can you develop the same skill set with reels, UW communication, bouyancy, etc from a wreck penetration course?

I'm closer to the Great Lakes than the Caves.

Thanks for your thoughts

Mick


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1. overall training quality is cave, but there are wreck specific skills, so if you have to choose one form of training, cave will be much easier to translate to wreck diving than wreck to cave, but you should find a wreck mentor to help teach you some of the nuances. There are good wreck instructors and bad cave instructors, but as a whole the cave training tends to be more rigorous. This will make you a good diver, but does not substitute for training in the nuances of wreck diving. I'm sure it has been said before in this thread, but I'm still reading it. Wrecks are actively out to kill you, a cave will only allow you to kill yourself.

2. buoyancy, trim, and propulsion, should NEVER be taught in a wreck or cave course, they should be mastered before you get there. I don't live under a rock, so I know most people use cavern/intro as their intro to tec type course, but that doesn't change the way it used to be and should be. Communication should be comparable, but the reel work tends to be much more in depth in a cave class. You obviously don't deal with lift bags, dsmb's, current, etc etc, so you have to master those outside of the class.

In your location, I would choose wrecks, but I don't mind cold water, and proximity is nice. Cave diving is a completely different atmosphere than wreck diving, especially off of charter boats though, so while I enjoy wreck diving, cave diving is quite relaxing and that is a huge part of why I prefer cave diving. The diving is nice, but relaxing around camp fires drinking and eating good food with like minded people trump getting up at 5am to get out to the boat for when I need a vacation

Point is this. You need to be a wicked good diver to do both properly and being a squared away diver will make either of those options easier. I.e. you always read about how cave training kicked their butt and was the hardest class they took. Cave training is really really easy, there isn't anything to it, what kicked their butt was learning to become a real diver and that will translate to wreck or cave diving. If you suck you suck, but if you are squared away before you get in then the skill sets apply to any kind of diving. If you are a really good cave diver, you will likely have an easier time going to wrecks than vice versa, but the point said earlier would drive me to put my money in cave country. A cave cards gets you access to caves, and likely into any wreck if for some strange reason you are asked. A wreck diver card doesn't do you any good in cave country. Get cave certified if you're interested in it, and then find a good mentor to teach you some of the nuances of wreck diving, and you'll be good to go. Not that it is a substitute, but if you're ever asked about a wreck card for penetration, show them a full cave card and they usually will let you on. This doesn't substitute for the training, but I believe much more in being mentored from good divers than on formal instruction.

 

[Doppler]

Mike Nelson was promoting trimix back in 1958...[emoji6]




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Decompression was being done from 20 metres up on heliox in England in mid 1970s

 

[decompression]

An interesting read......
Brief History Of Mixed Gas Diving


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[DA Aquamaster]

That's assuming that no wreck divers would have thought about running lines on their own. It's really not that novel of an idea I don't think.

History disagrees with you. Cave divers were using lines consistently in the 1960s. By then the advantages of small diameter braided nylon
on a reel were well understood.

Contrast that with wreck diving 25-30 years later, when wreck divers were still not in favor of using lines and some were even prone to cutting lines cave diver's were using in wrecks.

Wreck divers were drug kicking and screaming into using lines when it became obvious that cave divers with one or two dives on a wreck were safely doing penetrations that equal to divers being done by wreck divers with dozens of progressive penetration dives on the wreck.

 

[oldschoolto]

SARCASM ON... I better get down to florida and get my superman full cave card... To think I'm still alive after all these years without it... SARCASM OFF

I just can't stand the nose up , Our $hit don't stink cave divers... The more people talk about how great they are... The more scared I am of them..

Jim.....