would you put a inexperienced diver on this dive

[Jim-SAR]

Wow, that's a lot of reading. :shocked2:

I'm not near the level of the Pro's on here, but I've had some good training, and have experienced my share of difficult dives (deep wrecks 120'+, 32 degrees under ice, zero viz for search and rescue, etc...), but the thought of trying that dive even makes me thinks twice. Unless I had a 100cf tank, plus my 30cf pony, plus my drysuit, plus no new gear.

I'm currently a DM candidate, and I could not be a part of a dive with a student like this. I would not allow him in the water if I had the choice.

Please update us on how this all played out.

 

[zenheadhunter]

I will answer any specific questions you have outside of what i said i will not give out. and i thought i had been but i guess i need to do a better job.please if you would like to know something when you post it ,use my screen name or my real name so i know the question is directed at me .I think halemanō has a couple of questions at this point and i will do my best to answer them.

1.this dive will be 134' since they always circle the wreck under the bow and this is was talked about specifically by those involved.

2.The gear is still part rental since all the things the diver needed have not arrived (dive computer ,smb,finger spool,john line,lift bag,second stage octo etc.)

3.(Comparing your friends upcoming dive to a non training dive by 3 experienced cave divers who chose not to follow proper cave protocols seems inflammatory to me) This was not a question ,but if you read the whole reply you will see i was not comparing the dives but was referring to that both dives were trust me dives .

4. if you would like to know the name of this wreck i will need a reason why this is wanted as i have stated that i will not use names and this includes the people involved ,the instructor,the dive boat operation,the wreck,etc.
5.They will be diving 80 cubic foot tanks with no bailout at depth and there will be emergency gas available at the 15 foot drop bar as this is common practice on most n.c dive boat operations.
6. As far as if the diver reads this thread i would welcome it maybe they will show them that i am not the only person that thinks they should develop there skill set a little longer, as far as myself being non biased i never intended to be or i would not have addressed my concerns directly to the diver or have posted it on a public forum as my purpose was to keep this diver safe and within his current level of skills and to not become a statistic



This is a not a made up scenario as you seem to imply and the only poster that this has exited is you and i would like to understand why.I can take snippets of statements and twist them into what i want there meaning to be but don,t see how you think this is going to help get your questions answered any quicker,which i am willing to do if you have intentions of really contributing to this post and not just twist my intentions here by insinuating i am a liar or rejecting everyone here as armchair qb,s.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

The name of the wreck would allow us to verify some of your story, like temperature, and perhaps give us a little more physical profile than "134' MOD wreck dive." The reason I am asking these questions is because a PADI Instructor leading a PADI Deep training dive to 134' on 32% with a PADI EANx Diver as the Deep student, wearing a 5 mm full wet suit with 51 degree at depth all on an AL80 for the diver's 10th dive seems pretty preposterous on it's own; adding the medical issues on all 9 training dives (?) makes it seem highly improbable.

 

[zenheadhunter]

The empire gem is the specific wreck on this dive and i am still thinking it is my credability in question here more so than with the original question.You did not answer my question as to why you are so excited about my o.p .AS far as what i posted feel free to do some research on the wreck.All of this is samantics, if a diver can,t decend to a 20' training platform in fresh water with 0 current without trouble they are not ready for deep dive training simple as that.

Thanks ,
Vince

 

[Jim-SAR]

The empire gem is the specific wreck on this dive and i am still thinking it is my credability in question here more so than with the original question.You did not answer my question as to why you are so excited about my o.p .AS far as what i posted feel free to do some research on the wreck.All of this is samantics, if a diver can,t decend to a 20' training platform in fresh water with 0 current without trouble they are not ready for deep dive training simple as that.

Thanks ,
Vince

This is true. However, what some have tried to speak to, is that with his clearing/medical issues, he shouldn't be ALLOWED to perform any additional training dives until they're resolved.

If this is the same LDS that certified him for OWD, then they would be aware of his issues, and SHOULD refuse to enroll him in the AOWD and Deep courses. If they enrolled him, then this also meens that your friend must have falsified his medical questionaire, which can become a legal liability should anything happen. He has basically lied his way into the dives/training, and the LDS allowed it.

Have you asked your friend what his actions will be when A, B, or C goes wrong during the dive? What was his answer to each scenario? Things such as regulator failure/free-flow, free ascent/loss of down line, buddy separation, narcosis, etc...

Honestly, if you're a true friend, then do what is necessary to stop this dive from happening. If it saves his life, and ends your friendship, then it's still worth it. He'll understand once he gains more knowledge.

 

[Dragon Eye]

I'm actually sad to of seen that PADI Instructed courses are ignoring the minimum diving requirements at some shops. AOW in all honesty should have a minimum number of dives beyond the 4 check outs. Having someone go WAY beyond their training is just irresponsible. Teaching new skills is one thing, but recklessness is completely different.

I personally just moved to the DC area and have experience in fresh, low vis, and extreme cold and deep. I have 4 tropical dives on the books with exceptional visibility and current/waves. I would not do this dive as my first plunk-down here even if it was to 100 ft.

If I had a friend who was so gung-ho about diving I would convince them to go to another awesome shallower and warmer wreck with me for a few dives. If they wanted to do it anyway, I'd probably give a mention to the shop and not be on the boat that day. It only takes one accident and at that depth with that skill level, you know there may not be a recovery.

This also seconds my desire to make sure air redundancy is the program for insta-buddies.
Hopefully your fellow diver sat that one out for some more skill training time.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I'm actually sad to of seen that PADI Instructed courses are ignoring the minimum diving requirements at some shops.

This isn't really a PADI issue ... I've known instructors from shops that were not PADI shops to cut corners and do things that, frankly, I consider not particularly safe or prudent.

I think what it really boils down to is a business model that uses dive instruction as a loss leader to get people into the shop, in order to sell trips and gear. Because instruction is viewed as a means to an end, rather than the priority service being offered, it is easy for LDS owners to take the approach of doing as little as possible to get their clients certified.

I also believe it's more the exception than the rule ... although the temptation increases during times of bad economy, when people have less money to spend on recreational activities. Where I live we have shops offering basic scuba classes for as little as $129. How much value do you believe the shop employees are putting on that training ... and how much effort do you think they'll put into producing a quality course?

It is generally true that you get what you pay for ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[zenheadhunter]

Jim,
I have done all i can do with this diver ,they are going to do what they want and this diver has been told to wait by myself and to come out and dive with us for a while ,then go to the wreck later when they work out their troubles and perfects their buoyancy control.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

i am still thinking it is my credability in question here more so than with the original question.You did not answer my question as to why you are so excited about my o.p .

That is very astute. Let me explain why your credibility is in question;

...

This diver has not made any dives since there checkout dive but are going to do a dive with strong currents and to a mod of 134' in the atlantic with 1/2 of there equipment being new to them with 0 dives on this equipment.

...

The above statement is in your original post.

halemanō,

I will try to answer your questions 1. I,m sorry if i missed your question or ignored what you wanted to know
2.The diver is finishing his aow this weekend and passed his no dive nitrox class .The so called deep dive he will make on dive 4 or 5 of aow will be in 65 ffw max since where he is taking aow this is the max depth of quarry.The dive he will be doing for #2 deep dive will be 134'

More than 4 days later we find out that you evidently miss worded the OP when you made it sound like this would be the divers 5th dive ever! Also, we find out that another previous post here of yours was miss worded, since evidently the diver will only be half way through their Deep Specialty (4 dives required)...

John ,this is not part of the aow training , this diver will be getting his deep specialty on this dive which i thought the limit was 100 feet max for deep cert with padi (i may be wrong) It is just to much to soon IMHO.

the fact remains that even being with very experienced tech divers if you become seperated from their experience and knowledge that you are relying on to keep you safe and you know in the open ocean this is very possible in a 4 -6 knot current what do you think the new diver would do (panic ?).

The above statement is in your 3rd post in this thread, and even though I and others have pointed out this is complete BS you have not replied to any question with regards to your 4-6 knot current comment!

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considering the new diver will be diving wet at 134', in a 5 mil on a single 80 tank not the best way to start in my inexperienced opinion.

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If the above is true all you have to do is tell PADI or the Charter Captain as this is a double PADI Standards violation of Deep Training depth and 32% EANx use.

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If you fall at 134' in 51 degree water with minimum gas supply with no experience i am pretty sure your not going to get the chance to ever get up again.

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Hard to tell from the way you worded the above statement; are you saying the current bottom temp for this wreck is 51 degrees?

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In my opinion anyone who has done 9 total training dives in a fresh water quarry and has had issues on every dive should wait a while to correct any issues they are having in a safer environment than on this wreck.

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Pretty much the first we heard that there were issues on the AOW dives; could you please tell us a little more about what you saw during those AOW training dives. Or if you were not watching what were you told, and if the diver did pass his AOW evidently the issues were addressed?

...

2.The gear is still part rental since all the things the diver needed have not arrived (dive computer ,smb,finger spool,john line,lift bag,second stage octo etc.)

...

Plenty of beginning divers make advanced training dives in rental gear, similar to what they have dived in the past. In your first RED quoted post above, you say "with 1/2 of there equipment being new to them with 0 dives on this equipment." Since there were the 5 AOW dives since that statement, could you be a little more specific about what pieces of gear he has never dived/trained with that they will use on this deep dive?

AS far as what i posted feel free to do some research on the wreck.All of this is samantics, if a diver can,t decend to a 20' training platform in fresh water with 0 current without trouble they are not ready for deep dive training simple as that.

Again I ask; what problems happened on say the AOW Deep Dive, and if there was not a solution to the problem is he a certified AOW diver?

Thanks for the name of the wreck!

 

[zenheadhunter]

NW,
I do not see this as a padi issue either and the thing that concerns me is this diver is taking such a risk at their current level of ability (not training).There is a big difference between what the plastic card in your wallet says and what you are capable of,I know i don't have to tell you this but some think if you are aow and nitrox certified they are ready for any dive(some are some are not)This one needs more time in the shallow end and a trip to the doctor to check out the physical problems IMHO. Just to let the masses know this diver has said that they were disappointed in their training in part, as not all instructors are cut from the same cloth and they stated aow was easier than ow how does this advance your level of training ,basically if you learned nothing more you are still ow(just my own opinion)

Thank you you are always helpful,
Vince