would you put a inexperienced diver on this dive

[MauiScubaSteve]

OK, here are four quotes from the first three web pages I visited speaking of the Empire Gem;

Summer Temperature: mid/hi 70s, but subject to thermocline to the high 60s on the bottom

Big difference between high 60's and 51 degrees!

Although large and impressive to see, the bow offers nothing other than a large looming hull bottom to inspect with some sparse scattered debris to either side. The entire bow section is intact from the stem to where the hull was torn in half just prior to the engine room. However, it is completely upside down with both gunnels buried deep in the sand – simply a huge encrusted hull bottom with nothing in the way of artifacts or anything else of interest.

If a ship is upside down with both gunnels buried in sand, one perspective to take with regards to "swimming under the bow" would be that you are actually above the wreck?

The stern is on the port side though with the decks rising to appx 110’

Which is the 1.4 ppo2 depth of 32%.

However, we have dived the Gem in conditions with no current and over 100 feet of visibility and it is impressive in these circumstances.

 

[zenheadhunter]

halemanō,

I completely get what your saying in your posts(that you think its ok for the diver to make this dive) If this is your opinion that is fine by me it is what i asked for in the op and you are entitled to it but it is not mine and never will be.I hope everyone takes the time like you did to research the wreck in its full context.Thanks for the reply have a good day

Vince

 

[farsidefan1]

I have no issue with this dive. It is a free country, Darwin collects the rent, proper advice has been given by the op (unfortunately not by the dm) although given his limited experience the diver in question has chosen to ignore. It's all good. If I were the OP I'd stay as far from this dive as possible - you don't want to be suffering from post traumatic stress.

One question, will there be other divers or will the DM be handholding only this one poor victim of circumstance?

A final bit of advice for the diver, add one step to predive check. Bend over as far as possible and kiss your sorry ass goodbye.

I don't want to sound uncaring, the simple reality of life is you do what you can do but control is an illusion and the sooner you figure that out the less frustrated you will be when people premeditate something stupid.

 

[zenheadhunter]

Farside,
Their will be other divers on this trip

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

halemanō,

I completely get what your saying in your posts(that you think its ok for the diver to make this dive) If this is your opinion that is fine by me it is what i asked for in the op and you are entitled to it but it is not mine and never will be.I hope everyone takes the time like you did to research the wreck in its full context.Thanks for the reply have a good day

Vince

NO!

You do not completely get what I am saying in my posts!

I never said I think it is OK for the diver to make this dive; I am saying that since you have made up a bunch of scary $h!t about the planned dive none of the opinions expressed by any of the participants in this thread have anything to do with the actual dive as planned!

# of dives made prior to deep dive, bottom temp, current, gear, etc; there are lots of things you have typed that have been questioned and you sound like Clinton during the Lewinski investigation, never answering any questions that would contradict your previous questionable statements.

This thread is probably slander on your part with regards to your friend's Instructor(s) as I do not think any one can say prior to the dive that any Standards or Laws are being broken, yet the way you have typed makes those kinds of allegations!

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

One question, will there be other divers or will the DM be handholding only this one poor victim of circumstance?

Farside,
Their will be other divers on this trip

Nice half answer!

We are talking about a Deep Specialty training dive, with a Deep Specialty Instructor. Is there also a DM assisting the Instructor? Are there other Deep Specialty students your friend's Deep Specialty Instructor is directly supervising? How many divers are under the supervision of your friend's Instructor on this dive, what are their levels of certification and experience, and are there other Instructors/DM's involved in the Deep training dive group?

 

[zenheadhunter]

SHIP NOTES: (Sources: Gentile, 24)
Name: EMPIRE GEM Type: Tanker
Built: 1941 by Harland & Wolff Govan, Glasgow, Scotland Owner: British Tanker Company, London, England
Home Port:
Size (ft.): 463-3 x 61-4 x 33-0 Gross Tonnage: 8,139 tons
Propulsion: Twin screw diesel engine/speed 11.5 knts
Date Sunk: 1/24/1942 Cause: Torpedoed by U-66
Location Cape Hatteras, NC GPS: N35° 01.783'/W75° 28.502'

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SHIP HISTORY; (Gentile, Hickam, Moore, 21)

Empire Gem plaque at London Merchant Marine Memorial
The MV Empire Gem was less than a year old when it was sunk. The tanker was traveling from Port Arthur, TX carrying 10,600 tons of gasoline. It's ultimate destination was the United Kingdom by way of Halifax, Nova Scotia. A veteran of the Atlantic convoys, the tanker was armed with a stern-mounted 4 in. gun, several machines guns and a 12 pound anti-aircraft gun.
The Empire Gem had been traveling up the coast in a zig-zag course and overtook the bulk-ore carrier Venore just as the ships were entering the Diamond Shoals area. Little did the crew of the Gem know, but the U-66 had been stalking the Venore. One of the legs of its zig-zag course brought the Gem between the u-boat and its intended target. After sinking the Empire Gem, the U-66 turned its attention back to the Venore who by this time was racing towards shore. It sunk the Venore with its last torpedo. Meanwhile, the Empire Gem was a raging inferno, keeping its forward speed while burning at the stern. The engines were finally stopped, but by the next morning the stern had fallen away and sunk. The surviving crew managed to anchor the blazing bow section, but it flipped over and sank the next day. Only two of the 57 crew members survived.

Diver explores the engine area Part of the stern machinery

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DIVING NOTES:
Diving Depths: 120-150 ft.
Current: none to undiveable
Visibility: highly variably and dependent on current and winds off the shoals; even when viz is good, the depth and particulates in the water make the wreck appear dark.
Summer Temperature: mid/hi 70s, but subject to thermocline to the high 60s on the bottom
Points of Interest: Stern: boiler, engine, 4 bladed propeller and rudder section; Bow:intact and upside down
Fish/Animal Life: red snapper, sandtigers, lots of black sea bass, tautog, oyster toadfish , amberjacks and african pompano — if the warm water is on or above the wreck;

Rudder/propeller at stern Looking straight down the rudder

Albeit fuzzy, notice the hub of the prop in this 2002 picture and the 2004 picture above. A couple feet of sand have filled in since 2002. I found this bottle sitting on the starboard (low) edge of the stern fantail. Seems unlikely that it sat there thru the sinking, don't you think? ....but it has been there a long time.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Description: I have dived this 4-5 times and except for one exceptional dive, the viz has been 25 feet or much less. There are reported to be 2 separate pieces. The stern end and the rest of the ship. The stern section is the better dive, as the bow is intact but upside down; I have been on the bow, but viz was so low, I couldn't confirm the orientation or make the jump to the stern, but did discover the :"turtle shell" surface typical of an upside down hull. I am told the stern points towards the two forward sections — prop/fantail points toward the other two sections — 180 degrees from what you would expect; the stern is upright on its keel, laying on its starboard side; the 4 bladed prop and rudder sections are intact and can be seen on the port side; You can still see the curve of the fantail around the stern; the engine, port boilers and fantail appear to provide the highest relief on the stern; this wreck is known as the smell or stink wreck because of the smell of oil that still escapes from the bow section; You can sometimes see the oil slick on the water;

 

[mheaster]

Nearby, the USCGC Duane sits upright in +120' water; the main deck was 108' on my computer for my AOW Deep dive. PADI allows dives to up to 110' deep for AOW, as long as the instructor asks for and receives permission.

"Conduct dive between 18-30 metres/60-100 feet."

PADI allows 60-100 feet for a Deep (Recreational) Training Dive
I believe you may be referring to a Instructor submitting a written application for and receiving a Waiver from Standards. It is valid ONLY for that one Instructor and must be reapplied for annually

Also of Note: "Absolute maximum is 40 metres/130 feet." I doubt they would approve a Waiver of that depth based on the way it is written.

If an Instructor is taking you on a training dive to 134 feet; What is he really teaching you about the Agency he teaches for and the Agency you have chosen to take classes with?

Did you also say you were beginning a Dive Master class?

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

"Conduct dive between 18-30 metres/60-100 feet."

PADI allows 60-100 feet for a Deep (Recreational) Training Dive
I believe you may be referring to a Instructor submitting a written application for and receiving a Waiver from Standards. It is valid ONLY for that one Instructor and must be reapplied for annually

Also of Note: "Absolute maximum is 40 metres/130 feet." I doubt they would approve a Waiver of that depth based on the way it is written.

If an Instructor is taking you on a training dive to 134 feet; What is he really teaching you about the Agency he teaches for and the Agency you have chosen to take classes with?

Did you also say you were beginning a Dive Master class?

Mark, thanks for adding a few fairly unnecessary words to my statement that pretty much conveys the intent of the Waiver from Standards with regards to AOW dives beyond 100' depths.

My next post in this thread included the following statement;

the AOW Deep Dive is the 1st dive of the Deep Specialty, and could be dived to a max depth of 110' if the Instructor has written permission from PADI to conduct AOW Deep Dives to 110' at this specific dive site.

It is often a good practice to read every post in a long thread so as to not swallow a size 12. If you had read just a few pages past my above quoted post in your post, you might have comprehended this statement (which was also quoted by another participant to this thread);

My EANx training was culminated by becoming an IANTD Advanced Nitrox instructor which at that time followed the NOAA 1.6 max for working portions of the dive and 1.8 for non-working portions; Mr Rutkowski knows I am an avid photographer and he had no lawyer advising him not to say things like "gently sneaking up to 1.8 for a photograph seems reasonable but chasing to 1.8 for a photo is not reasonable."

Another enlightening feature of ScubaBoard is that if you click on the member name next to our posts you have an option list to look at a few details of each member, including our profile page, and for some of us there is even a link in said option list to our personal web sites (mine includes a resume page).

Everything else in your post has been pretty well hashed and then exhaustively re-hashed, but perhaps there is still more hashing to be done.

 

[mheaster]

OK, I'll spot you that I hadn't read your next post (much less the entire thread) when I responded your post. It did in fact answer my question about DM.

I was completely unaware of your Scubaboard rule that dictates that I must read all the posts before replying to one.

I primarily was bothered by the 134' violation of Standards. I am just not sure how/why an Instructor would participate in that, advertise it here and then staunchly defend it? Maybe only to obtain reactions; OK, I fell for it. (Again)

I am referring only to conducting a Recreational Training Dive to that depth. I fully understand people routinely dive and train to deeper depths. I see those dives as being conducted under different Governing Entities' Guidelines and Standards.

I guess I have again jumped in and voiced my opinions in a forum composed on many individual's opinions and I still value my own opinion as much if not more than others but still enjoy reading and considering others and even making a comment when the urge strikes me and I fail to suppress it!

Again: If an Instructor is taking you on a training dive to 134 feet; What is he really teaching you about the Agency he teaches for and the Agency you have chosen to take classes with?