would you put a inexperienced diver on this dive

[MauiScubaSteve]

Are you saying that Mr Rutkowski said you would be just fine @ 1.8, or that he didn't say it, or that he didn't say anything?

one of my finest moments was when that "Old guy said I'd be OK."

I'd be careful about giving too much weight to old guys telling you "You'll be OK"

Every time an old guy has told me something was dangerous, they've been correct. The track record in the other direction, not so much.

Dude, that "Old guy said I'd be OK" crack was "jets am" (thrown in deliberately) just for you, copied from your profile page;

Certification Agencies
An old guy with a spare tank
Dive History
I generally dive somewhere between 0' and 140' and like to come back to the surface when I'm done.
Certification History
Old guy said I'd be OK

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

And as far as depth is concerned. Someone who partakes of all the training, right away, will not see 130 feet on a non-training dive until they've at least 48 training dives, beyond their initial entry training.

Thal, I did not think we were talking Research Diving certs in this thread. How many OW dives comprised the LA County scuba training that I thought most recreational training agencies have watered down, and how deep was that new certified diver's recommended max depth?

 

[flots am]

Dude, that "Old guy said I'd be OK" crack was "jets am" (thrown in deliberately) just for you, copied from your profile page;

Yeah, but I put it in as a joke, and you were apparently serious.

Flots.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

I put it in as a joke, and you were apparently serious.

Do you have smiles disabled?

one of my finest moments was when that "Old guy said I'd be OK."

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

What is sounding alarm bells for me is the diver in question (if you believe the OP and I see no reason to doubt him) has medical issues.

The difficulty clearing, bleeding nose, dizziness, ear pain all need to be dealt with BEFORE a dive to this depth. The buoyancy issues are also a concern. I am concerned that this may be a diver who doesn't know what he doesn't know.

And what I have been trying to point out is that the OP is not perfectly relating the situation;

Is it possible the issues you are worried about are being addressed in the AOW cert dives that are being completed before the deep Atlantic dive, in the new dive gear?

Is it possible the Instructor leading the deep Atlantic dive is the same Instructor as the AOW Instructor, so they know the student's situation.

Is it possible the planned depth of the dive is no more than 111', since the gas to be used is 32% and the training agency is PADI?

Is it possible the temp at 111' is not 51 degrees, since there are 110' deep wrecks off Virginia Beach that reportedly have 70 degree bottom temps last week?

Is it possible that if currents are over 3 knots the Captain &/or Instructor would chose another wreck?

flots am thinks I am apparently serious, but I though I was obviously seriously making fun of all you alarmist armchair quarterbacks.

 

[elmer fudd]

Is it possible that if currents are over 3 knots the Captain &/or Instructor would chose another wreck?

Not only do I think that this is possible, I can't really imagine anyone trying to dive a wreck in 3 knot currents. Three knots is a really swift current. It's faster than most of us can swim in scuba gear even in the best conditions and the only way to fight a current like that is to crawl across something solid hand over hand. Even Michael Phelps would quickly get worn out trying to swim against a current like that while wearing scuba gear.

I don't think most people really grasp how slow we are underwater. They see a current that seems to be faster than they can swim and assume it has to be 5 knots or more. For reference, a normal traveling speed underwater is probably about 1 knot and really finning fast you're probably going about 2 knots, while an athlete in warm water and light gear might do 3.

 

[zenheadhunter]

I did not mean to get a heated debate started about all the particulars of the dive plan as this is the internet and i in no way could possibly express the divers skill level in words or every single little detail about the dive .It would take every one who answered my post to see this divers current skill level to understand my concerns for them. In my opinion anyone who has done 9 total training dives in a fresh water quarry and has had issues on every dive should wait a while to correct any issues they are having in a safer environment than on this wreck. I would like to say this is my opinion and just my opinion, that if a diver just received there aow and thinks they are a advanced diver is sadly living in a state of self delusion. Their are people who are on this forum who have dives numbering in the thousands and still plan their dives from start to finish and discuss with their buddies what this plan is and follow a s.o.p for what to do when t.s.h.t.f ,they do this through lots of self training and emergency situation scenario practice and this in my opinion is what makes these diver highly skilled not any card that they carry in their wallet.Ultimatly divers are responsible for their own safety and should never have to rely on another diver to keep them safe or not be prepared for what to do if they are separated or something happens to to their teammate is not ready to be a real dive buddy and some rare cases should pursue a different activity. The diver i was talking about in my o.p does not fall in the do something else for sure but is not self reliant at this point in their diving and would be served well by more diving time in a less stressful environment for them as all of the wrecks and caves and depth of the ocean will be there when they are ready for them so what's the rush.

 

[boulderjohn]

I did not mean to get a heated debate started about all the particulars of the dive plan as this is the internet and i in no way could possibly express the divers skill level in words or every single little detail about the dive .It would take every one who answered my post to see this divers current skill level to understand my concerns for them. In my opinion anyone who has done 9 total training dives in a fresh water quarry and has had issues on every dive should wait a while to correct any issues they are having in a safer environment than on this wreck. .

I think the problem is that you are now talking in generics, but your original question dealt with specifics. The problem as I see it is that as the thread has unfolded, some people have questioned specifics. You have been asked some very specific questions about the situation, but you have not responded with the information requested.

The situation as you described was, without question, something few people would endorse. You got predictable negative responses. Who in his right mind would do that? But some have questioned the accuracy of that original description, bringing up the possibility that the description might have been to some degree exaggerated. Perhaps the dive plan is safe after all. That's way people are asking for "all the particulars of the dive plan." People go from 9 dives in the quarry to an ocean dive all the time. Sometimes it is safe to do so. Sometimes it is not.

It depends upon "all the particulars of the dive plan." It might be very dangerous. It might be very safe.

You asked people about their opinion about THIS DIVE, not a generic situation. If you want good opinions about THIS DIVE, then you have to give "all the particulars of the dive plan" for THIS DIVE.

If you want to turn it into a generic question about generic preparation, then I suggest you start a new thread with that premise.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

I did not mean to get a heated debate started about all the particulars of the dive plan as this is the internet and i in no way could possibly express the divers skill level in words or every single little detail about the dive .

But you seem to have worded your posts in a way that would affirm your opinion. If you really wanted our opinions unaffected by your bias you could have worded your posts in a closer to the facts way. Below are snippets of your first few posts;

This diver has not made any dives since there checkout dive but are going to do a dive with strong currents and to a mod of 134' in the atlantic with 1/2 of there equipment being new to them with 0 dives on this equipment.

In actuality, the diver is making 5 more dives, to complete their AOW before this deep dive, all with the new dive gear(?) and they are most likely not going below 110' on the deep dive.

I can think of one such situation when 3 experienced cave divers entered a cave and 1 had never dived the cave before and in his words this was a trust me dive where the other 2 diver said they knew their way and chose to not run a line in a offshoot they took and became disoriented in this off shoot and became lost.fortunately they made their way out with 150 psi left between them.

Comparing your friends upcoming dive to a non training dive by 3 experienced cave divers who chose not to follow proper cave protocols seems inflammatory to me.

the fact remains that even being with very experienced tech divers if you become seperated from their experience and knowledge that you are relying on to keep you safe and you know in the open ocean this is very possible in a 4 -6 knot current what do you think the new diver would do (panic ?)

...

considering the new diver will be diving wet at 134', in a 5 mil on a single 80 tank not the best way to start in my inexperienced opinion.

You have yet to respond to any questions or comments with regards the dives actual planned depth, the realities of 2-3 knot current and temp at 110' on this wreck (is the plan to dive to 134'???); the name of the wreck would help. Is he such an air hog 110' on an 80 is unsafe? Please let us know if he used a bigger tank, and by all means take the credit; I'm sure a PADI Deep Specialty Instructor would never think of it on his own.

If you fall at 134' in 51 degree water with minimum gas supply with no experience i am pretty sure your not going to get the chance to ever get up again.

Almost as inflammatory as the cave scenario.

this diver will be getting his deep specialty on this dive which i thought the limit was 100 feet max for deep cert with padi (i may be wrong)

Yes and yes, you are wrong and wrong; the max depth for PADI Deep Diver is not 100' and he will not be getting his Deep Specialty on this dive (unless there are 2 more deep training dives you have not told us about before the deep dive in question).

What you have in this thread are mostly a bunch of opinions on your exaggerated, imaginary and inflammatory dive plan. Imagine your relationship with your friend after he stumbles onto this thread? :shocked2:

EDIT; beat to the punch by boulderjohn

 

[elmer fudd]

I still think it would be irresponsible to take a new diver on this dive, but to put the current thing a little more in perspective. A nautical mile is 6076'. So a 3 knot current would sweep you along 18,228' in one hour, or 304' in one minute. So assuming that someone just went with the flow, a drift dive on a 300' wreck would be over in less than a minute! Even for a strong swimmer fighting the current, the wreck part of the dive would likely take less than 5 minutes.