Would you dive with this op?

[turt1e]

...

I will go ahead and add - that unless you were chartering a private boat - the crew on the boat has to take everyone into consideration - just because YOU wanted to stay shallow doesn't mean they should hold the whole group back.

That argument could easily go the other way as well. Why should the safety of the newer diver be jeopardized by what the more experienced group wants? Shouldn't the dive site chosen be based on the ability level of the least experienced diver? If someone on a mixed ability level boat wants a guaranteed wall dive then maybe they should charter a private boat.

I am not making excuses for the dive op - BUT - You were diving with a large resort op, not a small boutique shop that offers more personalized level of service. No, I would not dive with that op before or after your report - but if I did find myself diving with a large run of the mill resort op catering to all levels desires, etc. I would keep my expectations and personal responsibility in line with that. I think your expectations were too high - you wanted caviar and paid for anchovies - and that's what you got!

How exactly where the expectations to high? The original poster got at least three different confirmations from the DiveOP that they would be doing a shallow dive.

 

[Mossman]

That argument could easily go the other way as well. Why should the safety of the newer diver be jeopardized by what the more experienced group wants? Shouldn't the dive site chosen be based on the ability level of the least experienced diver? If someone on a mixed ability level boat wants a guaranteed wall dive then maybe they should charter a private boat.

While apparently there are many new divers who come to Cozumel for easy dives, notwithstanding the fact that Cozumel is better known for deep walls and currents, I believe that many experienced divers come to Cozumel for the deep walls and currents.

If you have a group of 8 divers and one diver insists on going to Columbia Shallows twice a day all week because they think it's dangerous to dive below 30', I can imagine the other 7 would get a little upset at some point because that's not what they believed they were paying for.

It makes no sense to hold back the divers that go to Cozumel for typical Cozumel diving because a newbie found himself or herself in the wrong place at the wrong time. Speaking from a business perspective, a dive op that continually annoys seven divers to make one diver happy will lose seven customers and only gain one in return. That's just not good business, especially in a competitive environment like Cozumel.

That said, there are some "advanced" sites that I believe should require a group consensus because they are a bit beyond what the average Cozumel site entails. But divers that put themselves on dive boats unable to safely dive the average Cozumel sites should either find a different destination where the average sites are much better for beginners, sit the "unsafe" dives out, or utilize the services of a private DM or even a private boat charter until they are up to diving the average sites.

How exactly where the expectations to high? The original poster got at least three different confirmations from the DiveOP that they would be doing a shallow dive.

There have been plenty of times when the McDonalds drive-thru voice confirmed my order, yet what I ended up with was different than what I ordered. At a small restaurant, it's easy to send my faulty order back and request that the chef makes me what I wanted (and hopefully not spit in it). But at McDonalds, I'd have to park, go inside, yell at the manager, and still probably end up with an incorrect order.

Smaller operations, whether they are restaurants, hotels, or dive ops, are usually able to deliver more personal service. When I dive with LU, for instance, and I tell the guy who answers my e-mail that I want something in particular, I'm pretty sure I'll get it. If not, the guy who answered the e-mail is also the guy leading my dives and the owner of the business, so I can be pretty sure he'll remember my original request when I remind him. (Not that I ever request anything besides nitrox, but that's only because I'm a very laid-back undemanding sort of diver.) On the other hand, when you use a big corporate dive op that franchises through big hotels, the DM on the boat is probably getting instructions from the dispatcher who is getting instructions from the dive scheduler who is getting instructions from the e-mail answerer. Too many cooks and any special orders are easily forgotten. You didn't want special sauce on your Big Mac, go back in line!

 

[turt1e]

If you have a group of 8 divers and one diver insists on going to Columbia Shallows twice a day all week because they think it's dangerous to dive below 30', I can imagine the other 7 would get a little upset at some point because that's not what they believed they were paying for.

And the shallow diver would be upset because he was not getting what he payed for. So who is at fault here? Obviously the dive op for not setting the proper expectations for both parties.

It makes no sense to hold back the divers that go to Cozumel for typical Cozumel diving because a newbie found himself or herself in the wrong place at the wrong time. Speaking from a business perspective, a dive op that continually annoys seven divers to make one diver happy will lose seven customers and only gain one in return. That's just not good business, especially in a competitive environment like Cozumel.

If a dive op sets expectations properly, then hopefully the newbie will be able to make an informed decision that will keep himself from being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Also, I imagine that having a newbie die because they were trying to make seven divers happy is probably not good for business either. Especially if they assured the newbie a shallow dive and then at the VERY last minute changed the location based on satisfying a group of more experienced divers.

 

[cvchief]

If you have a group of 8 divers and one diver insists on going to Columbia Shallows twice a day all week because they think it's dangerous to dive below 30', I can imagine the other 7 would get a little upset at some point because that's not what they believed they were paying for.

While I agree with the sentiment, the problem is he was promised something else. No one would dispute the boat vote is a good idea, just don't offer something else.

There have been plenty of times when the McDonalds drive-thru voice confirmed my order, yet what I ended up with was different than what I ordered. At a small restaurant, it's easy to send my faulty order back and request that the chef makes me what I wanted (and hopefully not spit in it). But at McDonalds, I'd have to park, go inside, yell at the manager, and still probably end up with an incorrect order.

So you accept that and McD's gets a gold star because that IS good service for them?

Does that mean Lost was wrong to expect a big op to follow through on what they promised?

There are two different things here. It is one thing to order a McD burger and get a McD burger. You shouldn't expect a steak burger.

However you order McD burger and get a filet of fish, you got a reason to be pissed. (Though I love a filet of fish. Or at least i did. been years...)

 

[mikeycanuk]

While dive op is partially at fault, the fact the OP did minimal research and picked based on convenience. A little research and time spent here would have probably led to a different outcome. When you really boil it down, you have to look out for yourself. Cozumel was the first dive trip I've had more than 3 op's to choose from. I spent a lot of time and made a decision that was the right one.

Too little time was taken and too much taken for granted considering your lack of experience.

 

[dytis-sm]

Dive sites often change for a variety of reasons including conditions and sometimes experience level. The first is typical everywhere, the second typical in the US because of more strict safety precautions. I would not discuss the later because it depends on the operator and not as common unless there are classes on board. I have been on several trips however where we started for point A and ended up on point X because of conditions. That could have been the case in your trip and should cut the dive op a break on that. The rest of the experience sounds like a bad day while diving...not necessarily the dive ops fault. When we jump in the water as somebody mentioned you have consummated the agreement to go diving on that spot and at that point it is your responsibility to proceed or bail. I also think that if your buddy had a pre-existing condition, that ear drum would have burst on any dive shallow or deep anyway. Sounds to me that you are trying to blame the dive op for some bad luck on that day...time to accept it.

 

[Mossman]

While I agree with the sentiment, the problem is he was promised something else. No one would dispute the boat vote is a good idea, just don't offer something else.

Bait and switch is very common. For instance, when I stayed at Secrets, the website told me I would have a bathtub. I didn't. But I made the best of it, especially since I only had to soak my peed-in wetsuit on the last day.

I've had airlines change my seat even though I was promised.

And plenty of times, I've had dive ops cancel dives just because a little norther blew in.

Change happens. We can either fight it, whine about it, or accept it.

So you accept that and McD's gets a gold star because that IS good service for them?

Does that mean Lost was wrong to expect a big op to follow through on what they promised?

There are two different things here. It is one thing to order a McD burger and get a McD burger. You shouldn't expect a steak burger.

However you order McD burger and get a filet of fish, you got a reason to be pissed. (Though I love a filet of fish. Or at least i did. been years...)

Not only a gold star, but a National Geographic award:

"Pro Dive Mexico has a PADI Carreer Development Center (CDC) and several PADI 5 STAR Gold Palm scuba resorts along the Riviera Maya & Cozumel and recognized with the NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC award. "

Here, the diver ordered a Cozumel boat dive and got a Cozumel boat dive. They supplied two tanks, weights, a dive guide, and a boat ride exactly as promised.

When I order my burger with no pickles because I can't stand pickles, they always leave the pickles on. Well, not always, maybe 85% of the time. Do I post nasty reviews on Yelp? Nope, I just pick off the pickles.

What would be worst is if I ate the burger anyway, then complained to the manager that I could have died from eating pickles because of my deadly pickle allergy, yet I ate the burger anyway because I was hungry. Which is exactly what our McDonalds customer did by going on the dive that he knew he was allergic to.

 

[cvchief]

While dive op is partially at fault, the fact the OP did minimal research and picked based on convenience. A little research and time spent here would have probably led to a different outcome. When you really boil it down, you have to look out for yourself. Cozumel was the first dive trip I've had more than 3 op's to choose from. I spent a lot of time and made a decision that was the right one.

Too little time was taken and too much taken for granted considering your lack of experience.

So Lost is a jackwagen for believing what the dive op told him because he should have known a big op often fails to fulfill promises.

And Pro Dive is less responsible because they are a big op and should be expected to screw the pooch.

That is the kind of thinking that gets every kid a trophy and no one keeps score....

 

[Zman96]

You make it sound like it's all at once.

They did shore dives and they were certified in Cozumel, so they weren't "new to currents". On my Cozumel wall dives, the dive op usually gets the group together and makes sure everyone is OK before heading over the wall. Inside the swimthroughs, there's usually no current and the "wall" part is immaterial. It's likely they weren't at 85' in the swimthroughs either.

So you have an hour dive that reaches a max of 85', may have some current, and a few swimthroughs which really don't qualify as "overhead" and you call that task loading? Sure, if they were also carrying cameras and performing DIR drills and navigating back to the boat. But two certified divers following a DM in warm clear water really isn't too difficult. It's certainly not reckless.

Maybe it's perspective. Three of my four certification dives were at Cortes Banks and my first post-certification dive was a night drysuit dive in cold water off San Clemente Island to 66' where I got separated from the group, got a bad case of alternobaric vertigo, and ended up doing an uncontrollable ascent that left me puking on the surface with a long swim back to the boat. So I honestly don't feel a warm clear water daytime dive to 85' following a DM is reckless, nope I don't. YMMV.

---------- Post added April 24th, 2014 at 11:43 AM ----------


If she's uneasy, I'd take her somewhere else. Currents and bottomless walls and swimthroughs can be overwhelming to some. There are people who consider taking new divers diving on popular Cozumel reefs to be "reckless".

Mossman I guess everybody is not a great as you are. Most divers when they enter the water for their first open ocean boat dives are going to be excited/ nervous/ anxious or all of the above. They don't even know what to be on the lookout for, that only comes with experience. I even get overly amped up for my first dive of a trip and I have been down there many many times. You know full well Cozumel shore dives are no where near the same thing as a wall dive at Santa Rosa and that was all they had done. Being comfortable in 25' of water with lesser current is a heck of a lot different that maintaining proper buoyancy on a wall at 85' and being on a wall dive is material to a new diver. This poster had said the only experience they had prior to this was their 4 open water cert dives a year before (usually done from shore) and then a couple of shore dives, in your book you would take them there? While Santa Rosa is not Baraccuda or Maricabo or San Juan it still is a little bit more of a challenging dive than Paso de Cedral, Palancar Bricks, Paradise or a handful of other great but not challenging dives. Just because Santa Rosa is popular, it doesn't mean it isn't a dive to be respected. Things can spiral out of control in a hurry, especially for a new diver, so having a hard bottom would be prudent in my opinion.

 

[Mossman]

Mossman I guess everybody is not a great as you are. Most divers when they enter the water for their first open ocean boat dives are going to be excited/ nervous/ anxious or all of the above. They don't even know what to be on the lookout for, that only comes with experience. I even get overly amped up for my first dive of a trip and I have been down there many many times.

Try visualizing the initial part of the dive, that helps. Or take Xanax.

These divers said they were calm and felt prepared. Attitude is everything.

You know full well Cozumel shore dives are no where near the same thing as a wall dive at Santa Rosa and that was all they had done. Being comfortable in 25' of water with lesser current is a heck of a lot different that maintaining proper buoyancy on a wall at 85' and being on a wall dive is material to a new diver. This poster had said the only experience they had prior to this was their 4 open water cert dives a year before (usually done from shore) and then a couple of shore dives, in your book you would take them there? While Santa Rosa is not Baraccuda or Maricabo or San Juan it still is a little bit more of a challenging dive than Paso de Cedral, Palancar Bricks, Paradise or a handful of other great but not challenging dives. Just because Santa Rosa is popular, it doesn't mean it isn't a dive to be respected. Things can spiral out of control in a hurry, especially for a new diver, so having a hard bottom would be prudent in my opinion.

The DM was watching them, hopefully helping with their buoyancy as needed. You do realize it's harder to get one's buoyancy down in 25' of water than 85' because of the greater pressure gradient in the shallows?

I wouldn't drop them in blue water and descend straight to 85', but if the drop were on top of the reef and I was satisfied with their buoyancy skills and comfort, then yes, I would lead them over the edge and down the wall, again watching for signs of discomfort and monitoring their buoyancy. If all looked well, why not go to 85' and slowly work our way back up.

How many dives do you believe a diver should have before doing a dive without a hard bottom?