Would you dive with this op?

[Dan G]

It is pretty reasonable for people to say that the OP should have hired a private DM. If the dive op had insisted and he refused, then it's all on him. Otherwise, the dive op told him that they can meet his needs, so he had no reason to believe that they couldn't or wouldn't- until they got to the site. Sound like they were geared up and ready when the DM told them they were at a different site than briefed. OP can you clarify?

It is, however, absolutely his responsibility that they did the dive anyway. Do not get in the water if you don't want to. That being said, having the skill set to thumb a dive anywhere anytime is a one that is learned with experience. It can be tough- although still your responsibility- to call a dive when you are a novice. In the climbing world, not backing off a climb and exceeding abilities is a leading cause of accidents. (read the yearly published book "Accidents in North American Mountaineering" and you'll see "exceeding abilities" as one of the causes on many climbing accidents. Learning the difference between being nervous because you are puckered at the prospect of the climb - but knowing it is within your capabilities- and being nervous because you are about to exceed your abilities is not an easy difference to learn. And often you cannot learn the difference if you don't earn some wisdom along the way by screwing up.

One reason this happens on the big routes is that some people travel really far to do a big route- El Cap or Alaska- have a short window in which to complete the climb and don't want to descend because they spent a lot of time and money prepping and getting there. Same with us destination divers. Still you thumb the dive or back off the climb if necessary.

On a different note, I have had people attempt to fleece money from me all over the world- including Canada and the US. It is not a phenomena exclusive to Mexico.

 

[Christi]

WOW this thread got big! I just wanted to add some more details to my post and hopefully not detract from the thread.

My fiance and I were certified last year in Cozumel. We only had our 4 cert dives prior to this trip. I planned our diving so that the first 2 days we could do several shore dives to get our weighting correct and get used to our new equipment. We did 3 shore dives in those 2 days. Those shore dives were just what we needed to practice skills and learn how to use our new computers. So now we had 7 dives logged.

I'm glad this worked out for you and that there were no incidents. But let the record state, that the thought of brand new divers, having only 4 OW water dives almost a year ago under supervision, with brand new equipment, in an unfamiliar environment, with no real ocean diving or current diving experience (strong currents exist on shore dives too) absolutely terrifies me. So many things could have gone wrong, so I am really glad this worked out for you.

But that absolutely did not "qualify" you, IMO to do Santa Rosa Wall on your 8th dive (4 of which were OW training dives to a max of 60 feet) and 3 of which were shallow shore dives to what 20 feet? That was reckless on the part of the DM in my professional opinion as an instructor and as a dive operator.

The first dive at Santa Rosa wall, we were more excited than anything since we really wanted to do that dive while we were there. Our dive OP was Babieca, and I can't say enough about their service. The DM knew we were new, and knew we had done the shore dives. He asked us to stay close to him and he asked for our tank pressure regularly through the dive.

Normal, as he should have - this is nothing special

The swim through's were small and we could have easily just swam around but we felt comfortable so we did them. When either of us hit 700psi, he floated his SMB and we went up.

Again normal, nothing special or out of the ordinary.

The boat was right there to get us and the rest of the divers surfaced as they depleted their tanks.

Normal, standard operating procedure.

Both of us were completely comfortable with all of our dives that week and we never felt anything was "wreckless".

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that several factors made a difference between our experience and the OP's.

1. Some people are more comfortable in the water than others.

2. Those shore dives made a HUGE difference. I would not want to have to deal with weighting or equipment issues on a wall dive.

3. A good dive OP is important.

I'm very glad you were comfortable and that YOU didn't think anything was reckless - you were lucky and had a great experience. Not to pick on you, because we were ALL new at one time - and I don't ever forget where I started - but with all due respect, you don't even know what you don't know yet, so your bar is still set very low . I'm just very glad you had a good time and that you were safe and didn't have any issues - and hopefully you learned some more and improved your diving over last trip - that's the most important thing and that's what it's about - safety and progress, not perfection .

Cozumel is addicting - hope you visit again and often!

 

[flots am]

So it's not about the training to you, it's about the equipment.

How many divers have died in Cozumel swimthroughs recently from being unable to share air?

You're working very hard to put words in my mouth. They're unfortunately, not mine.

I wasn't referring specifically to Cozumel. The world is full of places where DMs take OW divers into overheads that are promised to be "safe", and places where the OW divers do it to themselves. Every now and them someone or several "someones" dies. It happens in Florida, NY and the rest of the US as well as in MX.

A properly trained overhead/deco diver would know what's required to share air in a restriction, and a properly trained OW diver would know to not go into one.

The point I was making was that with 4 dives, SurprisedOutlet and his/her buddy both "felt safe". Feeling safe is completely irrelevant and the only reason it went OK was because nothing bad happened.

flots.

 

[cvchief]

I wish I could remember who first told me, "Never attribute to malice that which can adequately explained by stupidity". I don't think you were taken advantage of; it is more likely that the DM didn't know about your request or just plain forgot about it. The op didn't stand to gain anything by the change in venue.

Well, I don't know that Lost said anything about malice. My read of his complaints could be attributed to incompetence or the nature of cattle boat ops.

So many seem to chime in with new diver programs and maybe he did emphasize that this involved a new diver, but for me it boils down to he was promised a nice shallow, simple dive and he didn't get it.

And I agree that a boutique op would have given more responsive service in my opinion. And wow, a private DM is great for new divers. But again, before ANY of that, he didn't get what he was told he would get, yet we are going to keep telling him everything he did wrong? We are expanding the parameters and then trying to make it his fault?

I see it as the Dive Op over promised and under delivered. Sure you can add suggestions of what might make it better for bringing the new diver to Coz, but I don't see ANY of that shifting the blame away from the OP for failing him.

 

[DjDiverDan]

I wish I could remember who first told me, "Never attribute to malice that which can adequately explained by stupidity".

One of my favorite quotes. It can also be stated as "never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence. ". The election of Barack Obama as President (twice!!!) has given me many opportunities to use it. The source is Napoleon Bonapart.

 

[Mossman]

and the only reason it went OK was because nothing bad happened.

Isn't that always the reason why things go OK?

 

[mikeycanuk]

Every new coz diver should have to spend at least one day on a cattle boat with a cookie cutter dive op before they are allowed to use a "boutique" op, just so they really appreciate the difference.

No way! I saw enough of them to figure out I don't want to be on one.

 

[Skittl1321]

Isn't that always the reason why things go OK?

The only reason things went badly is because something went wrong!

 

[flots am]

Isn't that always the reason why things go OK?

They also go OK when something bad happens and you're prepared for it.

 

[Mossman]

They also go OK when something bad happens and you're prepared for it.

How much preparation is enough?

For instance, I could run OOA on a single tank dive because of a reg failure, but no problem because my buddy is at arm's reach. Of course, when I go for his reg, turns out his also broke at the same time. So we both die.

Now prepared divers would always dive with doubles, isolation manifold, and redundant first stages even if it's a non-reckless 85' dive on Santa Rosa wall. But is that enough? What happens when both my regs fail at the same time and both my buddy's regs also fail. Clearly it's necessary to dive in a large team DIR style, with everyone not only wearing doubles, but also carrying a few ponies as well.

And then the great white shark appears and eats us all because no one though to bring great white shark repellent.

The fact is, the brief swimthroughs found at most sites in Cozumel are as safe as a recreational diver on a recreational site diving with a single tank and first stage because chances of "failure" are so remote as to be non-existent. If I ran OOA air in most Cozumel swimthroughs, I'm simply wait a couple more seconds until I swam through before trying to share air. Devil's Throat is a bit longer of a swimthrough, but there are sections IIRC where two divers could get close enough to share air and one good breath is enough to make it to the next air-sharable section.

After all, just about any time we get wet, we roll the dice on DCS and the possibility of an "undeserved hit". If you want to be totally prepared against that and all the other remote contingencies, simply stay dry and hope a coconut doesn't fall on your head.