Worsening insurance crisis

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I'm not a lawyer, I didn't sleep in a holiday inn express last night either. But a 30 second google search shows that an LLC won't necessarily protect you from your own negligent acts.

Why should it? Even Subfiend can't protect you from negligent acts.
 
What about the dive industry adopting the "insurance club" model similar to the large vessel shipping industry?

-Z

Or look at NRA Insurance for the shooting sports industry. When I was involved with a local gun club in Texas, I asked why they required NRA memberships. And he told that that finding insurance for the club outside the NRA is very difficult, while the NRA offered it at the most reasonable rates but with the stipulation that at least 50% of the club members were NRA members as well.

Apparently the insurance situation has improved somewhat, but it isn't like when I need business insurance for my business where I have a dozen different options and can get covered in minutes.
 
Or look at NRA Insurance for the shooting sports industry. When I was involved with a local gun club in Texas, I asked why they required NRA memberships. And he told that that finding insurance for the club outside the NRA is very difficult, while the NRA offered it at the most reasonable rates but with the stipulation that at least 50% of the club members were NRA members as well.

Apparently the insurance situation has improved somewhat, but it isn't like when I need business insurance for my business where I have a dozen different options and can get covered in minutes.

Insurance for bike racing through USA Cycling used to be handled very similarly. You had to be a member of USA Cycling during the event in order to be covered. One day licenses (memberships) were an option.
 
Would not this lead to people diving the way we did it when I started, meaning reading a book, or someone telling one:” never hold your breath, if your ears hurt on the way down, pinch and blow, never come up faster than your slowest bubble, and never hold your breath”?
Maybe in a micro underground setting but not as a normalization.
It is pretty much established that in order to become a scuba diver you need instruction, period.
The days of reading the instruction card in the regulator box has been gone for over 60 years.
My LDS has one instructor that is 65 yo and wants to retire soon. There are no other instructors that they have on their list. When I got certified through that same shop 25 years ago there were about 8-10 they could use. When being an instructor starts costing money for the pleasure of doing it is when they stop. It’s working for charity now, but there’s a limit.
All the shops in the area are facing the same problem. I think my shop charges about $600 overall for an OW cert and people bitch that’s too high now.
 
Maybe in a micro underground setting but not as a normalization.
It is pretty much established that in order to become a scuba diver you need instruction, period.
The days of reading the instruction card in the regulator box has been gone for over 60 years.
My LDS has one instructor that is 65 yo and wants to retire soon. There are no other instructors that they have on their list. When I got certified through that same shop 25 years ago there were about 8-10 they could use. When being an instructor starts costing money for the pleasure of doing it is when they stop. It’s working for charity now, but there’s a limit.
All the shops in the area are facing the same problem. I think my shop charges about $600 overall for an OW cert and people bitch that’s too high now.
My point is that if instructors become scarce, there will still be people who want to dive who will teach themselves.

Shops with fill capacity, charters, and such would still require a C card for liability purposes, but the scarcity would create problems for the industry.

I taught First Aid and CPR for a shop for about twenty years; they paid me with gear.

As my whole family were divers that suited me just fine.

With increased insurance costs I am sure instructors, absent personal wealth, would rather be paid in cash than kind.
 
Which method does your preferred training agency follow?
I understand the concepts, but how would one determine which method the agency is using? By looking at the required paperwork? Part of my graduate work was in risk/threat analysis, but I'm having a hard time making the connection between what you're suggesting and how to go about applying it to an agency.

I can see that PADI's non-agency agreement is an example of risk transference, but when I look at TDI/SDI's I don't see something that tells me, "Oh, that's what I'm looking for, it's clearly risk _________."
 
My point is that if instructors become scarce, there will still be people who want to dive who will teach themselves.

Shops with fill capacity, charters, and such would still require a C card for liability purposes, but the scarcity would create problems for the industry.

I taught First Aid and CPR for a shop for about twenty years; they paid me with gear.

As my whole family were divers that suited me just fine.

With increased insurance costs I am sure instructors, absent personal wealth, would rather be paid in cash than kind.
Instructors are already scarce, at least in my area.
Yeah, I could see an underground movement in my area sprouting up. Maybe in a dive club setting, although all the dive clubs we had are all gone too so probably not. But being that we are a coastal area with plenty of sportmen/spearfishers around, and especially up north in some of the isolated coastal communities where there is still an urchin industry, I could see a bunch of buddies banding together, one being an instructor or just passed down common knowledge, someone else scores a compressor, they have a bunch of used gear around, and no scuba police. Sure it’s possible.

The charter boat industry in California IS shrinking, not growing. Monterey only has a few boats as compared to 20 years ago when they has several boats. Things like the Conception fire didn’t help things, along with a few major financial setbacks, the 2009 recession and Covid definitely sprayed round up on the industry. If you look at the volume of divers taking part now as opposed to years ago it has visibly shrunk. This insurance problem will only spray more roundup on an already ailing industry.

But that’s here. Maybe in Boulder CO, Cozumel or the Caribbean things are honky dory, IDK?
 
All the shops in the area are facing the same problem. I think my shop charges about $600 overall for an OW cert and people bitch that’s too high now.

That is the other part of the death knell...the cost of entry into this activity is way to high as is the cost to maintain being active in diving as an activity. I am not saying the cost is not commensurate with the costs instructors have to pay for insurance or the costs to run a dive shop, but those costs are out of pace with what folks are willing to spend.

The dive industry is an unsustainable model...one might not realize that by reading posts on ScubaBoard, but the voices here represent a scant minority of those out here. The only real thing the dive industry has going for it is that there historically and currently have been no recertification/continuing education requirements for continued participation, and one can arrive at a destination such as during a vacation and have an activity that they are readily available to participate in.

But outside of that, the model continues to spiral unsustainably. The margins for everyone that needs to profit are slim, and for the end user, the cost of renting and/or purchasing gear is high, with additional high maintenance costs for equipment that generally sees little use.

There has also been a marketplace shift where the current generation is not looking to make a long term investment in expensive gear with limited use, that they can't easily maintain, for an activity they only do a handful of times at best. The current market segment are not looking to invest. Their generational paradigm is about experiences...they have no problem paying for a discover scuba dive with their go-pro camera to bag the experience of having an extended stay underwater and posting the proof on social media....by and large, they are not looking for much more than that, and why would they want to when they can just rinse and repeat or just move on to entertain a different experience all together for much less than the cost of training and equipment (renting or owning).

Even if one tries to minimize the expense of participation, there are still obstacles and financial burdens one needs to contend with that most are just not willing to except those of us that are truly passionate. Take for instance the cost of owning a tank...unless one plans to dive locally, the cost of owning a tank is not worth it, and unless one is doing a plethora of diving year-round the same is true. In the US, annual visual inspections, plus periodic hydrostatic testing, coupled with the cost of a fill generally pushes the cost of owning a tank beyond being a reasonable expectation for most divers....and god forbid the tank fail one of those inspections/test or the local shop (which are few and far between for many of us) decides for whatever reason they no longer want to accept the risk of filling one's tank...that pushes the cost of ownership beyond what most would consider reasonable. The cost of owning and operating one's own compressor is beyond reasonable for all but the most passionate among us as well. Contrast that to the high cost renting a tank compared to the limited amount of time one will actually use it. For me, for instance, to rent a tank I have a 2-hour round trip drive to the nearest local dive shop...and I would have to make that drive twice to pick up and return the tank, I would have a set amount of time to hold on to the tank and have to coordinate using the tank during that period or pay extra to extend that period...and all for what, 30 to 60 minutes of use?

And then there is the rest of the gear that one either has to invest in and the required maintenance for it as well. Even if one accepts the burden or has the passion to maintain their own gear there are still obstacles and high costs that one has to navigate. Even if one can obtain service kits, the costs are fairly ridiculous, $20-$60 for service kits per stage for what amounts to pennies worth of o-rings and a few other bits like a plastic backup ring, and a rubber disc.

Again, I am not saying that costs are not commensurate with what it costs a dive shop to run a business but it adds to the very high barrier to commence and maintain participation in this activity. The fact that the internet has wreaked havoc on the ability for a brick and mortar establishment to sustain itself, and the high cost of insurance for dive professionals, the SCUBA industry needs a major overhaul to be viable other than being a "destination activity".

To be honest, if one was to ask me if they should take up diving, my recommendation is their money is better spent on a good pair of hiking boots or bicycle instead, and just do a "discover" type experience when on vacation. For those that want to be truly adventurous, take up rock climbing.

-Z
 
So what do people think agencies could do to address the problem of increasing insurance costs? There is the obvious of remedial training for existing instructors to teach better and require new instructors to teach at a level higher than what is required. While this would increase the level of safety during training (good) it would reduce the number of existing and new instructors (good in my opinion but bad for the agencies' revenue).

This whole self regulation thing isn't working out too well. Maybe this industry will de facto be regulated by insurance premiums in the end?
 

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