Worsening insurance crisis

[Subfiend]

I want to say thank you for doing this. I've learned some things from your posts that I would have remained grossly ignorant of, but for your comments. There are a couple of my questions you've left unanswered, but suffice it to say that if we ever meet in person, be prepared to be plied with the drink of your choice as I pick your brain.

There are very few people in this industry that (a) have your experience, and (b) are willing to share it. I genuinely appreciate your willingness to get down in the trenches with those of us who aren't in your position.

I will generally answer questions upon being offered beer, tequila or whiskey, even though I drink very little. I don't drink much, but I drink well.

 

[Tracy]

Knowing this, my firm writes liability waivers so they can (1) be enforced as early as possible; and (2) if not, be used at trial to support an assumption of risk defense. If the waiver is written properly (as those of you who have seen my firm's waivers will know), they can be very, very effective when shown to a jury at trial as evidence of what the diver knew and what risks he or she assumed. As a rule, we don't prepare cases for settlement, we prepare cases for trial. When we help a client with their risk management strategy, we use all the tools we know of to help them mitigate, reduce or accept risk.

I get more complaints about my liability waiver than I do about my looks. I will say this, it is thorough.

 

[Wookie]

I get more complaints about my liability waiver than I do about my looks. I will say this, it is thorough.

My old one was written by me. David reviewed it.

 

[Tracy]

My old one was written by me. David reviewed it.

David or someone at his agency wrote mine. I made it an online form. The last thing I want on the boat is paperwork. They fill it out at home ahead of time. There is an Ipad on the boat that they can use if they forgot. If they fill it out on the ipad, the software actually takes a picture of them signing it. Not sure if it would ever be used, but I found it kind of amusing.

 

[Wookie]

David or someone at his agency wrote mine. I made it an online form. The last thing I want on the boat is paperwork. They fill it out at home ahead of time. There is an Ipad on the boat that they can use if they forgot. If they fill it out on the ipad, the software actually takes a picture of them signing it. Not sure if it would ever be used, but I found it kind of amusing.

Yes. That was one of the parts David said was strongest. Fill it out before they send money. Make the software not accept the money unless the documents were filled and signed.

 

[Germie]

"Consequently, all of the panelists felt that there isn’t really a “problem” of divers dying underwater, because some fatalities are inevitable in a sport involving some degree of risk and with millions of dives being performed every year. However, there is a very real problem of divers not following their training or diving within their experience levels, and this is the underlying cause of a majority of accidents. Additionally, medical issues such as cardiac and obesity are an important part of the problem,[11] and divers bear primary responsibility for assessing their individual health and fitness to dive.

Hmmm, what is more important? Training or experience?
There is still no autodidactical way of learning to dive accepted. But I think this can be possible for some people. Also sometimes going diving with friends teaches you more than a new course.

Remember, not that long time ago there was no course for diving an dpv for example, or ccr cave. So people trained themselves. And got experience.

As a lot of countries don't have a law about scubacerts, in that countries mostly you can start you own agency and sign people off. This means the people have a training level on paper, but no experience. So what is more important for accidents?

And what do insurances? They state: not insuranced when diving outside your certification limit.

The other problem is: what means experience? When are you experienced enough to do such a dive? And if 1 diver can do that dive based on their experience level, can everybody do that? No. Exactly, not all individuals are at the same level after the same experience.

Even not if they have done the same amount of training and amount of dives.

Divers are human, that means nobody is the same. That also means that mistakes will be made. Also there will be always daredevils.
There is no redundancy for stupidity. This means, just training and experience still mean that some divers think they are more experienced or more trained than they are in reality.

And even if no mistakes are made, there is a chance of just an accident. You did all right and still have an accident.

This means, in diving, and in every sport accidents and incidents will happen, what the cause will be, they will happen.

 

[boulderjohn]

And what do insurances? They state: not insuranced when diving outside your certification limit.

Which insurances are those? I haven't seen that myself.

 

[Germie]

Which insurances are those? I haven't seen that myself.

In the Netherlands there are insurances that state that.
Here an example:

Als u zich niet houdt aan de brevetbevoegdheden van de duikbrevetten die u in uw bezit heeft of waarvoor u in opleiding bent.

https://www.zichtadviseurs.nl/app/uploads/2021/08/ZICHT_Volmacht-Schox-voorwaarden_def_0121.pdf

I don't want to have that insurance, the reason for me is that I don't have any limits anymore as I am full trimix certified, but you never know if they think a mod3/full trimix cert is only till 100m depth.

In the Netherlands you have to read the travelinsurances carefully. Diving in you own country is here on the normal health insurance, so never a problem, even if you do stupid things. All medical costs are insuranced.

If you go abroad they advice you to have a travelinsurance. The travelinsurance here is a secundairy insurance, the normal health insurance will pay till the national level. So if you go to a cheaper country, there is normally no big problem. But in some countries, the costst are higher and then a travelinsurance will pay. Also a travelinsurance is there for other things like lost luggage. The travelinsurance is an additional insurance, so they are allowed to make their own rules. This means some state cave diving is never insuranced, even not if you have a cert for that. Others state there is a depthlimit (within recreational limits, so 40m, ndl) or a certification limit. And I also found in one that the equipment must be 'proven' well maintained. I service all myself, so it is well maintained, but I don't have a bill that I let it do.

 

[boulderjohn]

In the Netherlands there are insurances that state that.
Here an example:

https://www.zichtadviseurs.nl/app/uploads/2021/08/ZICHT_Volmacht-Schox-voorwaarden_def_0121.pdf

I don't want to have that insurance, the reason for me is that I don't have any limits anymore as I am full trimix certified, but you never know if they think a mod3/full trimix cert is only till 100m depth.

In the Netherlands you have to read the travelinsurances carefully. Diving in you own country is here on the normal health insurance, so never a problem, even if you do stupid things. All medical costs are insuranced.

If you go abroad they advice you to have a travelinsurance. The travelinsurance here is a secundairy insurance, the normal health insurance will pay till the national level. So if you go to a cheaper country, there is normally no big problem. But in some countries, the costst are higher and then a travelinsurance will pay. Also a travelinsurance is there for other things like lost luggage. The travelinsurance is an additional insurance, so they are allowed to make their own rules. This means some state cave diving is never insuranced, even not if you have a cert for that. Others state there is a depthlimit (within recreational limits, so 40m, ndl) or a certification limit. And I also found in one that the equipment must be 'proven' well maintained. I service all myself, so it is well maintained, but I don't have a bill that I let it do.

So if there are some insurances that limit you to your certification limit and you don't want that, don't choose that insurance.

The wording of your post implied that these limts are universal:

"And what do insurances? They state: not insuranced when diving outside your certification limit."​

​

That is a common belief on ScubaBoard, and it is usually not true. Some policies may limit non-tech divers to 130 feet, but I have never seen one limiting OW divers to 60 feet or AOW divers to 100 feet. Such a policy may well exist, but it is the exception rather than the rule.

 

[Tracy]

Which insurances are those? I haven't seen that myself.

My charter insurance. I'm not covered if divers are doing dives beyond their certification.

That would encompass your second response as well. If their cert is for 60', I'm not covered by taking them to 100'.

As to the choose a different insurance company, I can't. There is only one.