Wings of death?

[The Chairman]

As far as I can tell, the hole did not happen under water. I found the penetration point but have no idea how she happened. For a while, I thought it might have been one of you guys, trying to prove a point. My buddy pointed out the bubbles and I had noticed that I had to keep adding air when I stayed nearly the whole time @ 50 feet or so. I did not cancel the subsequent dive, though having listened to the naysayers for so long, I KNEW I was doomed. The second dive went off as well, and I never did resort to bladder #2 which was not punctured and I did not give you guys the pleasure of me dieing. I did patch the bladder, but I left the hole in the outer sack. On the whole, the only thing I did not like was untying all of my bungees to remove the bladder for repair. Once they were off, I replaced them all with thinner latex bungees.

 

[O-ring]

1. Can you orally inflate them with all those bungies pressing on the bladder?

2. Any chance of a stuck dump valve causing runaway descents because the bungies squeezed all the air out of the wing?

 

[The Chairman]

1) Yes, and I do so on every dive with them to be sure.

2) I have not yet had that problem, but I do have a 2nd bladder just in case. I hope that this bladder is the least used among all bladders!

 

[Walter]

I'm afraid this debate is over my head.

Pete,

I'll take your word that you have no problems with bungied wings. What are the advantages?

 

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by NetDoc
we just waited for the rest of the world to catch up.

Now, I am hearing the same thing about bungeed wings.

Pete... bungees are not an improvement nor are they state of the art.... they are the old stuff... the state of the art is the wing that allows WKPP to get to the end of the line and beyond.

You seem to think that the Halcyon wing is flacid & flaps... this proves your inexperience with Halcyon wings. They do not flap... they fold up around the tank(s)and present the least possible drag at all levels of inflation.

The ridges formed in the wing by your bungees insure that the maximum possible drag is produced at all levels of inflation.

If you would try the Halcyon wing once you would begin to understand what we are trying to tell you...

 

[The Chairman]

I like back inflation... it just works best for me.

I like the rigidity that comes with the bungees. No air shift... ever!

I do now own a 55# OMS non-bungeed wing, and will be testing it out as well. I am open as to what is best... I will not just assume what is best because others have told me so. The bungeed wing worked great with my new backplate at Forty Fathom Grotto. I will soon get to see just how well my non-bungeed wing works in a pool.

 

[Divesherpa]

I recently came to a realization about the BWOD. I was joking with a guy from England over the weekend about his BWOD, then he pointed at my sidemount rig and asked me if I was serious.

I'll never make fun of the BWOD again.

In fact, They are kinda Purdy!

 

[roakey]

So let me make sure I have this straight…

There’s a perceived problem of “gas shift” with bungee-free wings, so we introduce a solution, bungees.

But the solution creates another problem, which is power deflate (which, Pete, a bungee-wing user admits to above).

So to solve this problem, we introduce another solution, the back up bladder.

But about the backup bladder, Pete points out that “I hope that this bladder is the least used among all bladders!”

Which means that he’s halfway to realizing the problem that this latest solution created, which is to determine if his backup works or not!

Seems he has one of two choices, waste time at the start of EVERY dive testing his backup bladder, or he just blindly hopes it works when he’s in an emergency situation.

Both are poor options.

All to solve the perceived “gas shift” problem.

I say, “perceived” because, for example, I used to have a “balance shifting” problem on my bike. But my father put training wheels on my bike that kept it from shifting, but it was hard to ride because I couldn’t use the bike in the way it was designed. Finally my father took off the training wheels and, after a few adjustments, my riding improved immensely because I was actually able to USE the bike in the manner in which it was designed (leaning into corners).

Gas shift in a wing is a tool, not something to be avoided. Just like leaning into the corners (something you can’t do with training wheels) on a bike, being able to shift your gas to one side or the other is a feature, not a detriment to your diving.

Time to give up the training wheels and the plethora of problem-solution pairs they cause.

Roak

 

[The Chairman]

did not happen Roakey... I did have to add more air from time to time, but I would NOT call it a power deflate. Please don't twist my words to try and prove YOUR points.

Perception and preference... so subtle, so simple, yet very profound.

I dive wet... I perceive my second bladder as a redundancy... most of ya'll dive dry and don't have that problem. I have to admit, I rarely use it... only to orally inflate it to make sure she is still with me. But heck, I hardly ever use my back-up light either... they are all extra points of failure too, and I know I shouldn't waste any time making sure that they work!. Do you guys waste time checking out your backup regulators??? Gosh more redundancy mean more failure points too. Just buy a regulator that works, and you can forget the "perceived" problem that someday, it might not work. You guys make it sound do simple... reduce redundancy and thus failure points, but don't forget to take extras. Not even politicians could say that with a straight face.

 

[roakey]

Originally posted by NetDoc
did not happen Roakey... I did have to add more air from time to time, but I would NOT call it a power deflate. Please don't twist my words to try and prove YOUR points.

I didn't say it happened, I said you admitted to the "power deflate" problem. See:

Originally posted by NetDoc
I have not yet had that problem, but I do have a 2nd bladder just in case.

As for:

Originally posted by NetDoc
Perception and preference... so subtle, so simple, yet very profound.

Comprehension. Not so subtle, but still so simple, yet lost on many.

I guess that you bungee wing users haven't figured out that I'm not saying anything you don't agree with, I'm just shining a light on it and bringing your thought processes to their logical end.

To wit, you and/or other bungee users have all admitted the following problems in this or perhaps other notes: Power leak, unassembled bungees from the manufacturer, replacement of original, inferor bungees with those you feel are superior, having to read the directions carefully to put on the bungees, having to test your bungees to make sure they're installed correctly, having to spend more money to get a redundant bladder and associated support equipemnt, the lack of dilligent testing of the second bladder and lack of gas shift. The last we can debate, the rest are statements that have been made by proud bungee owners.

None of the problems mentioned exist with unbungeed wings.

As for your regulator argument, I guess you're too close to see the difference between a necessary versus unnecessary evil. I just don't see the fascination with the willy-nilly addition of complexity, failure points, entanglement risk and testing requirements.

Roak