Will Air Integration in dive computers replace the SPG?

[Bennno]

In reality, I think wireless AI hasn't caught on as much because of all the Chicken Littles running around telling us "It's written in blood! It's written in blood!" It's a FUDDD situation that's self perpetuating. You get one Point of View Warrior spreading Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt, Deception and Distortion and they start multiplying. It's like N Florida Cave Politics.

Again you're spinning Pete, I have never once said that AI is dangerous, you are twisting my words.
It has not caught on because it does not offer any PRACTICAL advantages over SPG and the price is too high.
It's an expensive toy that is not gonna kill you and not gonna help you either. If you like to spend extra money on gadgets, have at it Hoss. I've said this over and over again.

Pete, you quote me and than you write this crap right below that quote: It's written in blood!" It's a FUDDD situation that's self perpetuating. You get one Point of View Warrior spreading Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt, Deception and Distortion and they start multiplying. It's like N Florida Cave Politics.
Written in blood and spreading fear?
Show me where I have spread fear or doubt or anything of that sort.
You keep saying that people use deception and distortion. You are one of those people, Pete.

 

[packrat12]

And by definition, wireless AI is an innovation from the analog SPG.

in·no·va·tion
ˌinəˈvāSH(ə)n/
noun

1. the action or process of innovating.
   synonyms: change, alteration, revolution, upheaval, transformation, metamorphosis,breakthrough; More
   • a new method, idea, product, etc.
     plural noun: innovations
     "technological innovations designed to save energy"

Innovation does not mean better. The Space Shuttle is a great example. Never lived up to expectation, killed 14 astronauts and cost far more per launch. The only reason it was not scrapped in 1986 was because we already were committed. Even the Uwatec was innovative in its day. Read about the lawsuits.

wireless AI might add some benefits but I would hardly call it revolutionary. Since the most important data is the PSI, that is also what a SPG displays. A slight benefit is having it on your wrist. ATR is not important and may even be a dangerous crutch. It is a tool, yes but similar to the instant MPG gauge in a car, offers little 'important' information. The other data gleaned is really only good for reference, e.g. SAC, Logs etc.

What kind of safety margin does an ATR of 2 have?? If your buddy has a BDC failure and then blows their gas?? Go deeper before ascending??

A PSI using rule of thirds - I still should have 1/3 gas to deal with it. Min pressure - I still have the built in buffer to deal with it. ATR = 2 - I will refer to my PSI to gauge what time I really have. There are many other 'real life' scenarios that can come to mind.

All things working well, yes you will return to the boat with +/- 50 PSI, pat yourself on your back and say what a good diver you are. Or you may have found that the ATR is not correct and of course blame your stupid computer...

Other areas it may be great - Monitoring multiple students or people in a group. Monitoring family etc. But it really offers nothing critical to the diver but PSI. All other things are just information.

 

[Bennno]

It's irrelevant to the topic of this thread, because the tech has probably improved since then.

Probably improved? There is actually one thing that has improved. You can change the batteries now. Not exactly a big leap.
See, your're just ignoring the facts. Aladin Air X is a WIRELESS AI wrist computer and was out in 1995 and had the exact same functions as the newer ones. Who cares what it say on the Suunto webside.

 

[The Chairman]

Again you're spinning Pete,

Am I? You might not be a Chicken Little telling us that it's 'written in blood', but that doesn't mean there aren't others doing just that. You don't comprise all of the people who don't like wireless AI. In this case, you're the one spinning things a bit.

You don't think it adds anything to your diving. I really like it and use it, even for technical diving. I don't think either one of us is stupid.

 

[CuzzA]

wireless AI might add some benefits but I would hardly call it revolutionary. Since the most important data is the PSI, that is also what a SPG displays. A slight benefit is having it on your wrist. ATR is not important and may even be a dangerous crutch. It is a tool, yes but similar to the instant MPG gauge in a car, offers little 'important' information. The other data gleaned is really only good for reference, e.g. SAC, Logs etc.

What kind of safety margin does an ATR of 2 have?? If your buddy has a BDC failure and then blows their gas?? Go deeper before ascending??

A PSI using rule of thirds - I still should have 1/3 gas to deal with it. Min pressure - I still have the built in buffer to deal with it. ATR = 2 - I will refer to my PSI to gauge what time I really have. There are many other 'real life' scenarios that can come to mind.

All things working well, yes you will return to the boat with +/- 50 PSI, pat yourself on your back and say what a good diver you are. Or you may have found that the ATR is not correct and of course blame your stupid computer...

Other areas it may be great - Monitoring multiple students or people in a group. Monitoring family etc. But it really offers nothing critical to the diver but PSI. All other things are just information.

I never once stated I use the ATR feature. Are my posts being hidden from view?

So, what I've been doing with AI is I figure out my rock bottom calculation (me-solo or me and buddy) and program that as my reserve. Divide the remaining gas and set that as my mid tank warning. Because you need to set those two numbers in the computer you have at least created a safe plan, rather than "Be back on the boat with 500 psi." Because I did the calculations, I know what the numbers are in my head. I know some dislike an audible warning, but one turn/mid tank warning alarm during a dive doesn't bother me one bit. Because the data is on my wrist in front of me, that audible alert never really comes as a surprise, but when I'm heavily task loaded it's a nice reminder if my current task happens to occur during the point I should turn my dive but I'm occupied with something else. Is it essential that I avoid missing my turn pressure for a few minutes, not likely because I have my reserve, but it helps to avoid it and keep the dive going as planned. I think I'm having deja vu that we already discussed this in this thread.

In the absence of an AI computer you need to remember those numbers or right them down on a slate. Which is not a problem, but it's not as convenient. Especially if you're doing repetitive dives at different locations/depths.

So there is more utility to AI than everyone is stating.

 

[packrat12]

I never once stated I use the ATR feature. Are my posts being hidden from view?

So what would the innovation or revolution be? If it is bringing PSI to the wrist, that is minor. If it is having multiple transmitters combined, that is very cost prohibitive but again not a revolution.

The reality is AI and wireless AI really only enhance the data. With few and rarely used exceptions, it is a way to present PSI and enhance the information to give SAC and ATR. The exceptions are with the ability to monitor several divers or transmitters. If I were an OW instructor, I would love to monitor multiple students. But then again, if it or I fail and a student has an OOA issue, I can imagine how the lawsuit would go. Your honor - my instructor was fully responsible for monitoring my gas supply (as indicated by PSI) and failed to do so. This would be a little stronger then I failed to monitor my gas supply and my instructor did not notice.

 

[Bennno]

You might not be a Chicken Little telling us that it's 'written in blood', but that doesn't mean there aren't others doing just that.

You write this 'written in blood' BS right below my quote even though I have never said anything like that. That's spinning. You are distorting what I said, Pete.

If you meant 'other people', than don't write this crap as a comment under my quote.

 

[The Chairman]

You write this 'written in blood' BS right below my quote even though I have never said anything like that. That's spinning. You are distorting what I said, Pete.

If you meant 'other people', than don't write this crap as a comment under my quote.

A bit oversensitive, I see. You made the point that AI hasn't caught on in your thread. That was my response to why that might be true. Notice that it's even in a different paragraph from my direct response to what you wrote. However, I can't stop you from taking offence where none was meant. But please, don't accuse me of "spinning" when you're hell bent on doing it yourself.

 

[CuzzA]

So what would the innovation or revolution be?

By definition the innovation already occurred when it was released 20 years ago. No hose, added convenience. Some have said the tech has gotten better and now some are saying it's exactly the same. Who's right? I don't know. I don't make WAI transmitters. Was the tech patented? In order for anyone else to use it did they have to pay for the license? These could all be reasons why it didn't catch on faster. I don't have those answers. But everyday all I see is advertisements for the new computer with WAI, "Buy it today and get the transmitter free!"

Since ScubaBoard makes up a very small portion of the worlds divers, perhaps WAI ownership is already equal to those who use an SPG. No one knows for certain.

I also don't know how competitive the dive computer market is, but I imagine since nearly every manufacturer is offering it now, if you (dive computer manufacturer) don't offer it, you're going to eventually lose market share. And once every computer manufacturer offers it with all their product lines, competition will drive the price down, they will have to build a better, more durable, and smaller transmitter to keep up with the competition and differentiate themselves from the rest of the pack and before you know it, wireless air integration will become standard and there will be no sense in buying an SPG. And since no one on here can come up with anything creative about WAI and the dive computer I'm sure they will for us in an effort to stay competitive and we'll say, "Wow, who would have thought they can do that?" And their competition will say, "Damn, wish we would have thought of that." At least that's been my experience in business.

....You'll have to excuse me for a moment, I'm going to go remove my SPG from my rig. It makes no sense in having it on there. It's just an entanglement hazard that provides no advantage over my WAI, just a potential failure point. I'll be back.

 

[Charles2]

Once you wade through all of the "My way is the only way", "What can you know, you haven't been diving as long as I", "I've never tried or only tried it once and I wasn't happy", or the old standby "You're gonna die", this has been a very interesting thread. I am more convinced than ever that Air Integration (AI) will eventually replace the old brass and glass submersible pressure gauge (SPG). There were some good comments: Andy's post #520 seemed to be a well thought out process of how technology might actually improve and benefit diving. There was a suggestion that a small generator embedded into the first stage could actually power the transmitter. This leads us to the idea that if the manufacturers could agree on transmission protocols, they could begin to manufacture a first stage that would include a self-powered pressure transducer that would work with any computers that used that protocol. Wrist computers could be programmed with the dive plan and then used to monitor the dive - alarming if deviations occurred - and suggesting alternative exit/deco strategies if your back-up plan blew up too. The mind simply boggles at these future thoughts.

Having been initially trained before the SPG was in common usage, gas planning was a very (if not the most) important aspect of our training. Every single dive had to include a gas plan. We used conservative SAC rates (1 cfm initially and 0.75 cfm later on) - I don't ever remember having to pull my J-valve to get to the surface. When I got my first SPG, it took a little getting used to - the needle seemed to go down faster than I would have thought it should; however, I always seemed to get to the surface with more air than my plan had indicated. Guess I was being conservative in my planning. About two years ago, I got my first computer with air integration. I was amazed with the data that was available after the dive. It has made me a better dive planner because it has provided me with more accurate information that I can use to become a better diver. If the future holds was is mentioned in the first paragraph, the sky's the limit.

So you would be comfortable doing an ascent from 125' with 500 PSI and a safety stop

I would probably be a little uncomfortable if it was my last 500 psi; however, a standard rate ascent using a 0.75 SAC from 125' including a 3 minute safety stop at 15' will use a little less than 10 cu.ft. of gas. Using an old steel 72, 500 psi yields a little over 14 cu.ft. of gas. My SAC is considerably better than that so I would have to say that your scenario is a comfortable one. I just cannot imagine planning a dive that would allow me to wind up in your situation. If you are finding yourself in these situations often, I would suggest that you study up or perhaps take a class on gas planning.