Why waste money on training!?

[Doppler]

Contrary to what many folks think they know about my feelings on the topic, I am perfectly comfortable with "the venturesome few..." who opt to try something without appropriate training, equipment and experience. I have no issue with you or your buddy killing yourselves underwater... given that you fully understand the implications of suicide by ignorance.

I take exception, great exception, to a society that would then allow your family to sue everyone's ass following the autopsy... I also have an issue with your stupidity having a negative effect on access to the site where you chose to top yourself.

Seriously.


(Of course I understand the irony intended in this thread... and the double irony that some people still ignore the dangers they know exist.)

 

[Storker]

I've heard the " . .because I'm the one going in to recover your dead body because you didn't follow my rules and acted like a tool . . " - I've heard this line for 42 years of my diving career and have NEVER seen one instance where I could say this rationale is correct in any way shape or form.

I assume, then, that you've made a living will stating that you under no circumstances want a rescue team to get you out of trouble, and, if you die, your body should not be recovered? And that your close family members are informed about this and agree? And that whenever you go exercising your precious extreme personal freedom which in no way should be affected by the rest of the members of the society you've chosen to live in (I assume that you live in a society, and that you're not living by yourself hundreds of miles from any other human being, on subsistence farming), you do this in places where other people won't be inconvenienced by stumbling over your dead body or by the authorities closing down a popular diving site? If so, you should, even in my nanny state Orwellian opinion, be in your full rights to exercise your personal freedom to the fullest.

BTW, the term isn't "my rules". It's "commonly recognized guidelines for sensible behavior"

This is the worst kind of disinformation and propaganda. It shows a disturbing "community" take on personal freedom and liberty completely alien to - granted - a dwindling percentage of the world's population. Orwellian.

That was an interesting variety of Godwin's law, but otherwise more of a rant than any kind of rational arguments suited for a debate...

 

[DaleC]

Why keep reinventing the wheel & having potential casualties?..... It's been already been learned by the sacrifices (usually their lives) of others.

That's a funny statement from someone who goes into a cave that's already been explored. If you died underwater in the back of a dark, wet, well known tube of rock, do you think your loved ones would think it was worth it?

What's worse: Assuming an unnecessary risk doing something you don't need to do or assuming an unnecessary risk doing something you don't need to do?

Come on guys: who's impounding motorcycles and putting governors on sports cars. Who's banning junk food, bungee jumping and skydiving. And let me tell you, if I have to take care of one more old person who didn't exercise when they were young!!!

Sure people should avoid doing stupid things but pulling your hair out because someone wrote about basic deco? Kinda kooky.

 

[alpegmusic]

What classes did Jacques Cousteau take? What did people do before Padi and Naui?

YMCA (for me, at least). Many of the early instructors had Navy UDT training, as well. According to Silent World, Cousteau started out spearfishing with Dumas and some other folks and had some experience using the le Prieur free-flowing (non-demand) system, but I don't know whether he was trained by anone. Yves le Prieur conducted pool classes in the '30s with the device according to historical photos.

 

[tstormdiver]

That's a funny statement from someone who goes into a cave that's already been explored.

OK...... The sacrifies & deaths of the cave diving pioneers, developed the training & safe rules we have. They are establish & agreed upon as the best possible way know at this time. If you want to split hairs over that, then it could be applied to even recreational diving or any adventuresome sport or activity out there. There are the pioneers in most any sport like that that in 1 way or another helped to develope the sport. I am no pioneer by any stretch of the imagination, but I have undergone the training set in motion during the development of the sport.

If you died underwater in the back of a dark, wet, well known tube of rock, do you think your loved ones would think it was worth it?

Not so much an issue in my case. I'm single & no children.... My family knows the risks I take, but also know I have been well trained for it. I don't try to

 

[NAM001]

You are correct but the list fo what i dont know is shorter

When you have completed all the training offered you know a lot more, but you still don't know what you don't know.

 

[Agility]

I think this thread should really be in the whine and cheese section.
The information is out there, you can buy books or search the internet.
And to me it is clear from what I have read that going into any virtual or real overhead environment exponentially increases the risk of diving.
Recreational diving has a very good record of safety, deep diving requiring deco is known to be much more dangerous (at least here in Europe people do know this)

 

[DaleC]

Tammy, my point was that you assume your risk (cave diving/rebreather), others assume theirs. More justification doesn't help because there is no reason for you to go into a cave, or dive, in the first place. It's an unnecessary risk. Mitigating an unnecessary risk doesn't make it necessary.

Typically, if done correctly, all the courses do, is give the student a "license to learn" in a safe manner.

I guess some of us never felt they needed a license for learning.

I agree there is a point to where there is the pioneering level, in which there is not training,... but up to that point, the training is there. To undertake dives, without available training is unconscionable & irresponsible

So nice of you to have decided the morality of human endevour for everyone else. It must be frustrating when others carry on without regard for your pronouncements. It's great that you have decided to pursue your choice of personal fulfillment in the way you wish. It looks like you are having fun. Can't you allow others to do the same.

 

[drbill]

I dove for 8 years before I even learned one had to be certified when I moved to California. Will readily admit that my great OW course (Los Angeles County) taught me things I didn't know. I wouldn't recommend learning to dive by trial and error, but someone who is intelligent enough to read and understand good basic theory material, and get some practical experience with experienced divers, may actually come out of it better than some of the OW classes I've observed over the years.

Where did people get their training before PADI, NAUI, etc? The YMCA and Los Angeles County programs come to mind.

 

[DaleC]

I think people make a mistake when they lump foolish behavior in with legitimate self learning - much the same way people lump lack of skill in with modern certification. A fool is a fool whether they have a card or not.

Some one who is firmly planted in the formal training paradigm probably assumes a self learner skims one online article, throws on some doubles and heads for the deep like a cowboy. They probably can't see intelligence in the lack of defined structure. Not so. Many people, myself included, have a method of learning that is actually more rigorous, investigative and time consuming than what some courses might offer. There are techniques for taking on more knowledge, applying it, gaining feedback and adjusting as a result, just like formal education. Some just like doing it themselves.

That is how the pioneers did what they did. It was who they were and how they approached everything. Why we would choose to eliminate that from our current population is baffling but I put it down to fear. At one time diving was the realm of the adventurer, who had a built in acceptance of the unknown. Now it is populated by the pedestrian, who bring their everyday fears along with them. They translate that fear onto everything they see and leave it up to the professionals to give permission and make it safe for them - and everyone else. They are even afraid of those who are unafraid; dwelling on all the ways the unafraid can harm them.

How important is self reliance in advanced diving? Why do we promote the skill while decrying the behavior or personality type?