Why waste money on training!?

[redacted]

I havnt watched the video or what ever. It all boyles down to.... you dont know what you dont know. That instructor has a pretty good idea what you dont know. Mechanics is always one thing. Skill is another

---------- Post added February 18th, 2014 at 09:13 PM ----------

They died till someone decided to better the odds.

When you have completed all the training offered you know a lot more, but you still don't know what you don't know.

 

[gcarter]

Hey guys why waste your own hard earned dollars on trivial things like training when you can just learn the old fashioned way? Read an article or two and completely rely on your computer! Qualified shmalified! Check out this article on Tech diving. You too can be a decompression diver, with little to no effort at all!



How To Scuba Dive | Scuba Diving Training & Certification | Scuba Diving


At the bottom it does mention something about training in a few words but I was too pumped to bother reading that far, Im a deco diver now guys! Doria here I come...

*disclaimer- This post is in its entirety is written with seething sarcasm. Do not dive beyond your limits*

That article must have been written by F*****h.

 

[DCBC]

What planet are you from? The dive training industry is set up on more classes. You take basic open water, then before you are done they want to sign you up for advanced. Then rescue, then a bunch of specialties, some more beneficial than others. Many of these classes plug holes in the training.

Some people just don't want to understand the economics of the dive industry. They don't stop and think, "Do the dive shop and training agencies make more money selling more or less training". Of course they make more money selling more training and will promote a never ending string of classes to take.

The dive shops and the certification agencies are in the business of increasing profits for their shareholders. Some more so than others. NAUI for example is a non-profit which has no shareholders. The organization is based upon membership. Each NAUI Instructor has a vote, they elect a Board of Directors from the membership; which in-turn guides Staff in the running of the organization. If money is made, it doesn't go into anyone's pocket (unless you happen to be an employee and get a salary). The goal is to provide quality education to divers.

Obviously there are poor instructors in every organization. NAUI's initial training program was devised from the L.A. County program (which as far as I know even today maintains the most extensive minimum requirements for certification). PADI took the NAUI program and broke it down into manageable pieces (OW, Advanced and Rescue). They added some additional material over the NAUI Basic Diver program at the time.

PADI became much more competitive. The course training time was greatly reduced (from 44 hours to 27). These requirements have been lowered over the years in all agencies. Over time, PADI has restricted its Instructors as to what they can include into their training program. This has had the advantage of standardizing the content, so you get the same program everywhere; great for quality control. NAUI has left it up to the Instructor to add whatever additional information and skill-sets they feel required (in-consideration of the local diving environment for example). In this way the only thing that is common in a NAUI course is the minimum requirements. One NAUI course could be quite a bit different from another (for example my ow course is between 50 and 55 training hours).

PADI became a much larger organization because it appealed to the get it quickly and at a lower cost focused consumer. Also they involved themselves with the diving retailer (again focused on making money); which was a smart business move. I have to give it to PADI, as the owners have developed a truly successful business. NAUI, BSAC and the World Underwater Federation (CMAS) are not for-profit organizations at all; which many people don't seem to understand. In this way they cannot be compared.

In any regard, I felt it important for people to understand that there is a great difference between the training philosophy of each agency. Some training agencies are still predominately Club/Instructor focused. Each prospective diver usually has more than one option in how they are trained (although this may not seem to be the case in all areas). A strong marketing campaign can make people think that their is only one option for diver training, but that's just not the reality. With a little research, I think you may be surprised...

 

[Storker]

Unconscionable and irresponsible in what regard? Am I placing an undue burden on the community? The "authorities" ?

No, on your fellow citizens. By dying through stupidity or irresponsible behavior, you place an undue emotional burden on the guys who have to recover your dead body. By having an accident caused by stupidity or irresponsible behavior, you are putting the rescue team at a risk to get you out of the situation before you die. In any case, the cost of the rescue/recovery operation and the cost of having proper and functioning gear - including, say, rescue helicopters and pressure chambers - is paid by the public, i.e. the taxpayers.

So, if you manage to get yourself killed or into an emergency through stupidity and/or irresponsible behavior, I'm one of those paying for your "personal freedom" to act like a tool. Your personal freedom to do stupid things is in direct conflict with my personal economic freedom as a productive member of society. It's got nothing to do with a "nanny state" and everything to do with your obligation not to have your "freedom" impinge on my freedom.


EDIT: "you" is used in the general sense, as I assume we're not living in the same country.

 

[Rich Keller]

What classes did Jacques Cousteau take? What did people do before Padi and Naui?

Cousteau was a French Navy diver. I just bought a tank & reg for $100 and a book on how to use them.

 

[george_austin]

No, on your fellow citizens. By dying through stupidity or irresponsible behavior, you place an undue emotional burden on the guys who have to recover your dead body. By having an accident caused by stupidity or irresponsible behavior, you are putting the rescue team at a risk to get you out of the situation before you die. In any case, the cost of the rescue/recovery operation and the cost of having proper and functioning gear - including, say, rescue helicopters and pressure chambers - is paid by the public, i.e. the taxpayers.

So, if you manage to get yourself killed or into an emergency through stupidity and/or irresponsible behavior, I'm one of those paying for your "personal freedom" to act like a tool. Your personal freedom to do stupid things is in direct conflict with my personal economic freedom as a productive member of society. It's got nothing to do with a "nanny state" and everything to do with your obligation not to have your "freedom" impinge on my freedom.


EDIT: "you" is used in the general sense, as I assume we're not living in the same country.

I've heard the " . .because I'm the one going in to recover your dead body because you didn't follow my rules and acted like a tool . . " - I've heard this line for 42 years of my diving career and have NEVER seen one instance where I could say this rationale is correct in any way shape or form.

This is the worst kind of disinformation and propaganda. It shows a disturbing "community" take on personal freedom and liberty completely alien to - granted - a dwindling percentage of the world's population. Orwellian.

---------- Post added February 19th, 2014 at 10:40 AM ----------

Cousteau was a French Navy diver. I just bought a tank & reg for $100 and a book on how to use them.

You might want to get the book "Regulator Savvy" and learn how to service that reg if it's a good old chrome plated brass product from the 60's or 70's - reason being is that a lot or modern dive shop sales associates will refuse to replace o-rings or seats on "old junk" because "you're going to die using that "old junk" - what you need is a 900 dollar titanium and plastic model from Brand XYZ - so you don't overburden your "fellow citizens" that will need to recover your body from the briny deep because you didn't spend all your money being smart

 

[Rich Keller]

If any student comes out of OW training needing their hand held, then their instructor failed them big time. And here's the sad part, most likely they will return to that same instructor for more classes because that's the only instructor they really know.

I disagree, I think that most if not all new OW divers need their hands held at the start. Just because they have learned what they need to know does not mean that they fully understand it yet. Most of what you learned in OW class you probably do now as second nature without even thinking about it. The brand new people are thinking about every little thing they are doing and get caught up in just being there. The end result is they go through a lot of air in a short time without getting much done. This goes away after they have put in the hours underwater but the industry in general just pushes more training and equipment as the solution rather then putting in more hours. The hours needed will of course vary by person. I made a dive with a brand new guy, I was using a 30 cu/ft tank and he was using an 80, half way through the dive we were both at 1500psi, on the second half of the dive we used closer to the same amount of air, once he settled down he was fine. Same thing happens to vacation only divers, on that first dive they blow through air and by the second most of them are fine. The other side of the coin is the diver who thinks he knows what he is doing, they are in my opinion the most dangerous. I dove with a guy who had OW, rescue and whatever certifications come between those two lecture me about showing up for a shallow shore dive without a BCD because he knew what he was doing. We got in the water and he did not have enough weight, went back for the rest of his weights and still did not have enough, so he was following me on the surface and breathing off his tank because he knew he did not need a snorkel either.

 

[Rich Keller]

You might want to get the book "Regulator Savvy" and learn how to service that reg if it's a good old chrome plated brass product from the 60's or 70's - reason being is that a lot or modern dive shop sales associates will refuse to replace o-rings or seats on "old junk" because "you're going to die using that "old junk" - what you need is a 900 dollar titanium and plastic model from Brand XYZ - so you don't overburden your "fellow citizens" that will need to recover your body from the briny deep because you didn't spend all your money being smart

The reg was a Health Ways purchased new in 1970 but I was only 13 at the time so I was not doing my own service then. I did get into servicing my equipment by 1979 and still have the Health Ways reg but use Scubapro R108HPs & R109s instead. I also still dive the same tank I got in 1970.

 

[flots am]

I dove with a guy who had OW, rescue and whatever certifications come between those two lecture me about showing up for a shallow shore dive without a BCD because he knew what he was doing. We got in the water and he did not have enough weight, went back for the rest of his weights and still did not have enough, so he was following me on the surface and breathing off his tank because he knew he did not need a snorkel either.

I jump in with nothing but a tank and reg under my arm. Generally I do it just to freak people out.

It's a lot of fun and not generally fatal if weighted properly.

flots.

 

[Rich Keller]

I jump in with nothing but a tank and reg under my arm. Generally I do it just to freak people out.

It's a lot of fun and not generally fatal if weighted properly.

flots.

I get some strange looks too for some of my equipment choices and the things I sometimes chose not to dive with. They must think "What is this crazy old man doing?" but after the dive they will usually start asking questions but not the question they first had in mind.