Why waste money on training!?

[flots am]

A competent, expert instructor/mentor will drive the student to near-meltdown.

The key word is "near". And it isn't so much harassment as it is a creating a "teaching moment" with relatively low risk.

Nothing on this planet ever gave me a better feel for the real meaning of "buddy distance" than when my deco instructor had me and my buddy swim into the current for a few minutes until I was hoovering pretty hard, then signalled to me that I was out of air.

You can't learn that from a book. You can read about "buddy distance" and awareness and skills, but there's nothing quite like your own personal "Holy-s***! I'm glad my buddy is here!" moment when breathing really hard at 100'+.

There was minimal actual risk, but quite a bit of stress.

flots

 

[ams511]

Sure, but not everybody understands the dangers this can lead to with a heavier tech rig. I don't think it's self evident to a majority of divers. "Balanced rig" certainly isn't taught to most sport divers. The tech philosophy of ditchable weight is completely different from that in rec diving.

Your underlying assumption is some newbie is going to strap on double tanks and go diving but I think this would happen rarely. Who is going to want to dive doubles if they don't need to? Not very many. Someone who is going to the expense of doubles is probably more experienced and have done their homework. They are probably going to dive with more experienced divers so they have mentors.

 

[Bob DBF]

For the reading impaired...

There's no reason that with proper training, skills and equipment recreational divers can't employ this legitimate technique for maximizing hard-earned diving dollars.

From their website, second paragraph. My emphasis, and the fact that "tech divers" are actually recreational divers.

Not that I am opposed to divers self training, I was making "tech dives" well before I picked up an OW card, which was not unusual for the times. I agree with DaleC "Many people, myself included, have a method of learning that is actually more rigorous, investigative and time consuming than what some courses might offer", I probably had 20 dives or so before I made 60', try to find OW divers now that take that kind of time after learning in 20 to 30 feet of water. Not having a BC or SPG helped slow things down but also made it a bit more difficult when doing deco.


Bob
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I may be old, but I'm not dead yet.

 

[DevonDiver]

You can ask almost any question on Google, or a forum; but there's simply no substitute for having expert eyes upon you as you put theory into practice. Self-study is fine, it is encouraged, but with an expert instructor/mentor you have access to someone who's done decades of that research...and has seen it applied in the real world. They can see you perform and will know how that performance indicates information you are lacking. They already possess the information you need and how to deliver it to you with relevance to a specific situation or to encourage a certain performance growth or greater understanding.

Nothing on this planet ever gave me a better feel for the real meaning of "buddy distance" than when my deco instructor had me and my buddy swim into the current for a few minutes until I was hoovering pretty hard, then signalled to me that I was out of air.

This is a great example. You can practice all the skills that you read about/see online. You can make yourself very adept at them. However, nothing can replicate the expertise of a good instructor who knows when to challenge you with those drills, skills and contingencies at the worst possible time. As a technical/overhead instructor, I closely study my students and how they are performing throughout the dive. I can time that instant when awareness is low, or stress is high, to throw them the curve-ball that they aren't expecting.... just like Murphy does in real life.

Advanced diving training isn't about learning skills A, B and C. Leave that mindset for the recreational courses... Advanced diving is about learning those skills then applying them...testing them.... as realistically and with as much challenge as possible. Doing so raises performance and eradicates complacency.

You can challenge yourself in self-training, but you are unlikely to ever fully challenge yourself. You can't spot your own moments of weakness and exploit them for a learning benefit.

 

[DaleC]

I don't think I will change anyone's minds and don't really feel the need to try. I have always felt it was my right to pursue my path as I will but not necessarily to advocate to others unsolicited, as I don't know the aptitude of strangers.

At the same time, I don't really agree with strangers transposing their stereotypes onto me.

Hey I can do it too: You don't know what you don't know.

 

[DCBC]

...Naui may be non-profit with the stated goal of providing quality education BUT the organization works for the financial benefit of its members. If it didn't then the members would move to other organizations. It is basic economics.

I can't agree with your statement. The NAUI organization doesn't actively work to increase the financial benefit of its members (NAUI isn't involved in their members business plan). Obviously they have designed a program that is relatively competitive (minimum standards), but they encourage their instructors to exceed their training standards.

The expenses incurred in the delivery of a diving program, encourages the Instructor to at least cover his/her costs. Some instructors elect to make money, but not all do (I've taught for years without remuneration).

I have a Padi OW cert along with Naul advanced and rescue certs and a TDI nitrox cert. Personally, I found very little difference in training between the different organizations. My Padi course was at least 4 weeks and maybe 6 not including the certification dives, but this was back in 90 or 91.

What is delivered in a program is dependent on the Agency and the instructor. This is especially true in the case of NAUI (or other certification organization which allows their instructors to substantially increase the training requirements for certification). As I've mentioned, although this is allowed, not every instructor will do so; opting to teach to the minimums. This often is the case when taking training from a dive shop; where profit is usually of paramount importance.

...I have little respect for dive training agencies. At one point they were dead set against technical diving, it was too dangerous and would give the sport a bad name. However, when it became clear the market was a profitable one then suddenly they were all for it and training instructors which may have never done a technical dive.

Yes, this is a sign of diving instruction becoming more client/profit driven. An interesting observation is that technical diving is the only area where a PADI (Tec) Instructor can modify the training program. So regardless of where you get technical instruction, it's the instructor (rather than agency) that controls the shape of the instruction you will receive.

Obviously, before you can be certified you must meet the agencies "minimum standards." The comprehensiveness of the training you receive is dependent on how much profit is acceptable to the service provider. Again, a Club setting can usually provide more comprehensive training at a price-point that would be cost-prohibitive for most dive shops.

 

[Doppler]

Your underlying assumption is some newbie is going to strap on double tanks and go diving but I think this would happen rarely. Who is going to want to dive doubles if they don't need to? Not very many. Someone who is going to the expense of doubles is probably more experienced and have done their homework. They are probably going to dive with more experienced divers so they have mentors.

Not trying to be an arse, but I disagree... and because I disagree, I've spent a fair amount of effort and time trying to get the message across that getting experience and doing homework is required.

What you believe is a rare occurrence happens often. You could walk onto many dive boats here in the Great Lakes and find many, many divers who have no clue about balanced rigs, how to fit a set of twins to their torso, or how to trim them out. Same goes for sidemount OC divers... clueless.

Mentors... would be nice but too often it's the blind leading the blind.

 

[edwardjohnson]

I fully agree with DevonDiver it´s not enough to self-learn for tec diving. Not only will you miss out on alot of advices and hints to improve yourself from an expert, you will also likely be in big trouble if something goes wrong that wasn´t in your book/online course. If your buddy doesn´t have as much knowledge as you as well it can be difficult to spot problems with your equipments while a instructor already have experience with those.

It also gives a sense of security having an instructor around so you won´t panick if there´s a problem happening.

Also weaknesses are invisible as stated to yourself and you won´t improve as fast.

 

[Edward3c]

Your underlying assumption is some newbie is going to strap on double tanks and go diving but I think this would happen rarely. Who is going to want to dive doubles if they don't need to? Not very many. Someone who is going to the expense of doubles is probably more experienced and have done their homework. They are probably going to dive with more experienced divers so they have mentors.

Here in the UK there is a 'macho' thing where a fair number of dives are done with twins because its the 'in-thing' not because the dive requires them.

 

[Agility]

Here in the UK there is a 'macho' thing where a fair number of dives are done with twins because its the 'in-thing' not because the dive requires them.

Maybe these dives are done with doubles to get used to the equipment as a preparation for dieves you really need them?
I do not see anything wrong in taking more gas than you need on a dive and I'd always rather dive my double 8.5l set than a single 15l.