Why Recreational Triox ??

[DA Aquamaster]

If that isn't one of the most arrogant statements I have ever heard. I suggest you get in the water with Andrew Georgitsis. If you walk into one of his classes with that frame of mind, you are in for a rude awakening. I seriously doubt you could handle Andrew when it comes time for the simulated failures. I know guys that would smoke most everyone on the list and they got their butts kicked in his classes. Do yourself a favor and check that ego of yours. Then take the gamble and try a Fundamentals class. I'm so tired of hearing you spewing your so called knowledge that I would put up the course money for you to take the Fundamentals class. Do you have the balls to except this challenge? If not, STFD and STFU.

You are out of line here. Initials or not the language does not belong on the board.

You are also out to lunch on the argument. Genesis says what he says and it is arrogance but if a GUE divers makes a similar statement of confidence in their abilities the rest of us are all supposed to just accept it and bow to their "superior" training even in cases where they have never personally though through their configuration but rather just accepted it as dogma?

Personally, I'd prefer to dive with someone who has a combiniation of experience and a well thought out rational for their configuration and the gases they use before I'd dive with someone who thought they were cool because they are GUE triox certified.

I also don't understand the value of an instructor essentially kicking everyones butt in a class (no matter how good he thinks he is.) The objective is to teach and intimidating your students is a poor way to accomplish that. The fact that that type of instruction is tolerated really does not make we want to attend a GUE class.

 

[Genesis]

There was no name calling in my post. Reread my post Genesis. It was a challenge to see if you are man enough to check your ego. In the process, you might actually learn something. If you don't learn something, then you wouldn't be out the money for the course.

The fact that you say rec triox has nothing you don't already have is most likely wrong. How could you possibly know unless you have taken the class.

You are suffering from the same blinder problem that the other partisans here have been displaying, and it has now perfused to the point that you're no longer reading what is written, but rather, are twisting words and taking others out of context so you can pretend that what you want to see was what someone actually said.

What I said is:

I actually see this as Part 1 of Tech 1, if indeed it is, and perhaps Tech 1 is "enough" for what I want to do (in terms of "getting admission" on various charter operations.)

Rec Triox itself has no particular application in that it gets me nothing I don't already have, but as the first half of something that does, it might be useful in that context.

What part of this was difficult to understand unless you are predisposed to twist what's written for partisan purposes?

Rec Triox does not give me anything I don't already have. I did not say that I would not learn anything in the class. I said that I gain nothing in terms of certifications from it, standing alone (including the prereq of DIR-F) that is useful to me.

Tech 1, on the other hand, would provide me with that.

Taking someone's words out of context and calling them "arrogant" because you refuse to read what is actually written, and instead substitute YOUR OWN WORDS is dishonest and deplorable. That you and others used it as an excuse to play a "pile on" game is not only dishonest and deplorable, it points out exactly where one of my major issues with GUE lies. They not only permit this kind of nonsense they condone and display it themselves, thereby perpetuating it.

That kind of "locker room" nonsense and the name-calling that has come with it points out precisely the problem, and that the board's "moderators" permit it just shows that application of the "rules" around here depend on whether you're a partisan of the appropriate order.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I'll offer this...

I think this is where some of the "perceived" attitude comes from. Also before I start please not envolved with GUE and I have never taken a GUE class though I have seen a couple and dived with people who have taken them.

GUE has introduced what I refer to as "cave level skills" to OW divers. I'm refering, for the most part, to the same sills all divers are taught but to a much higher quality. Things are done neutral, trim and as a team. As a general rule the other agancies aren't teaching anything like it to OW divers and many, if not, most OW divers never learn it. As a general rule most get a real culture shock in a DIRF or any other GUE class and that includes divers that have years of experience, recreational instructors and even divers with OW technical experience.

I think it's important to realize that many of the divers who move from mainstream OW training to GUE classes are of the opinion that GUE trained divers are the only divers with skill because that's what they've seen. Around here, with very few acceptions, if you see a diver who looks good in the water, it's one likely the local DIR guys. Now if you go hang out around the caves you'll see many divers who are skilled in the water who haven't been trained by GUE. They may or may not be DIR but they have skill in the water. Many of the divers who have taken DIRF and practiced at the local sites haven't been hanging out around the caves yet so they haven't seen it.

GUE does add their own twist on things but those detailes aren't what are most visable from a distance.

As long as the there is such a huge difference in skill level between recreational divers with GUE training and those without we're going to have these opinions and the arguments that result.

As long as other agencies stick to their guns in the opinion that OW dievrs don't need skill and good technique (and at least one agency has more or less said so more than once publically) and sends them off into the diving world without that skill, their students are not going to look good when there's some around to compare them to.

When you get into the tech and especially the cave communities, things get a little more even but in recreational diving the difference ls like night and day.

IMO, we can, at least in part thank some of the other agencies for this given some of the pure slop that they teach. As the number of GUE trained divers increases I think we'll see more and more of this and not just on the net. Those of us without GUE credentials will be thrown into the same pot as the other divers from out respective agencies until we prove otherwise and climb out of the pot.

Sorry if this offends any one but it's the way I see it.

 

[Genesis]

You have a point Mike....

What I've seen around here on cattle boats that passes for "training" is frightening. What's worse is that most people never learn anything more or better, because they have never SEEN better and have no idea what they're missing.

For MOST divers it takes about one dive with someone who is doing their thing trimmed out, level, and moving almost effortlessly through the water to "get it." Once they "get it", they want it. With a desire to have it, you can - you don't need to take a class. Oh sure, some of the other stuff (mostly the iron-fisted "team" mentality) that GUE embodies is specific to them, but the trim/buoyancy control/swimming position/movement skills (e.g. different types of kicks, backing up, etc) are not specific to GUE.

But how this gets translated into the "GUE good, everyone else gets foul language" I simply do not understand.

 

[cornfed]

But how this gets translated into the "GUE good, everyone else gets foul language" I simply do not understand.

All you need is a few overly vocal individuals to paint a bad picture overall.

 

[Dan Gibson]

You misunderstand what I am saying about the class. At no point are the divers in any real danger. These are simulated failures. If the heat gets to be too much, they were permitted to end the simulation and talk it over. The guys I know, never took that option. They wanted to be challenged. They were not intimidated and they certainly learned a lot.

If you don't see the value of turning up the heat, then so be it. That's your choice. I for one think the better a diver is, the more they should be challenged. The diving at these levels can be unforgiving. I wouln't want to end up in a situation where my training didn't permit me to handle the heat.

I also don't understand the value of an instructor essentially kicking everyones butt in a class (no matter how good he thinks he is.) The objective is to teach and intimidating your students is a poor way to accomplish that. The fact that that type of instruction is tolerated really does not make we want to attend a GUE class.

 

[MikeFerrara]

But how this gets translated into the "GUE good, everyone else gets foul language" I simply do not understand.

Just an expression of strong feelings.

A reminder for all

Such expressions are generally considered socially unacceptable and certainly aren't acceptable here.

I haven't choped up or closed this thread because I've participated in it but if people don't calm down some one will.

Plese stick to the subject and resist the urge to use offensive language even with initials.

Thanks

 

[-hh]

O.K. Perhaps you’ve already exceeded what is has to offer. But what about the PADI trained diver that wants to move beyond vacation diver and learn additional personal skills? IMO it seems wrong to bash it unless you can propose a better alternative. What agency offers better training at a competitive cost?

IMO, I would say DIR-F for skills development, and "any" good Nitrox class for addressing alternatives to air for within general Recreational Depths.

BTW, note that if Narcosis is a diver's concern such that they are going to apply a 100fsw max EAD policy, at 120fsw, the EAD of Nitrox-I is 103ft, which IMO is close enough.

Granted, its ppO2 at this depth is higher than some will accept, but given that Rec also infers single tank applications, the short exposure duration means that a case can be made that it may be acceptably managable. If this case is rejected and the criteria is EAD=<100fsw and ppO2 =<1.4, then the operational floor for Nitrox-I is 111fsw...and Triox's operational floor is 121fsw: that's only a ten foot window between the two.

-hh

 

[DepartureDiver]

Exactly, and this is where the claim loses traction: if the CO2 is lowered, the body will simply breathe slower until it builds back up to the point it requires for its feedback loop to function normally. If the value goes high, the response is an increased respiration rate until the value returns to its target.

It's supposed to work that way, but we as divers control out breathing rate. Little kids have proven they can hold their breath until they pass out. I'm sure a few divers have received a C02 headache at one time or another from improper breathing/mixes ... which shows it can build up.

 

[DeepScuba]

I'm gonna hold by breath and try and pass out.

Somebody call 911 if I don't repost in 10 mins.

(kidding).