Why Recreational Triox ??

[animian2002]

:sorry19z: It's me again. Asking "stupid" question.

I was surfing the net and I found information on Recreational triox course.
As what the website said, a Recreational Triox course is a no-decompression class structured to prepare divers for deeper recreational diving using proper breathing mixtures and correct ascent procedures.

And I can't help but wonder why the word "Receational" is being used ? The Words "Deeper", "Helium" has led my simple brain to think of Technical diving, so how recreation can it be :unsure: and based on my limited diving experience, usually our dive don't exceed 120ft, it is usually round 80 to 100ft . Personally, I will try to keep it within 100ft - depending on dive site) so is there a need for mixed gases (helium etc) though I know they minimize narcosis, CO2, gas density and post dive "nitrogen stress". :small:

And when I click for more information, I notice that student need to read up GUE Tech 1 manual, so doesnt it make the course a Technical diving course :20:

So Who should take Recreational triox course ?? Tekkie to be or pure recreational diver??

 

[detroit diver]

:sorry19z: It's me again. Asking "stupid" question.

I was surfing the net and I found information on Recreational triox course.
As what the website said, a Recreational Triox course is a no-decompression class structured to prepare divers for deeper recreational diving using proper breathing mixtures and correct ascent procedures.

And I can't help but wonder why the word "Receational" is being used ? The Words "Deeper", "Helium" has led my simple brain to think of Technical diving, so how recreation can it be :unsure: and based on my limited diving experience, usually our dive don't exceed 120ft, it is usually round 80 to 100ft . Personally, I will try to keep it within 100ft - depending on dive site) so is there a need for mixed gases (helium etc) though I know they minimize narcosis, CO2, gas density and post dive "nitrogen stress". :small:

And when I click for more information, I notice that student need to read up GUE Tech 1 manual, so doesnt it make the course a Technical diving course :20:

So Who should take Recreational triox course ?? Tekkie to be or pure recreational diver??

Yes. Actually, both.

I'm sure the GUE instructors can do a better job of explaining it but here's some points:

The class is called Rec Triox because it does not exceed depths greater than 120 feet. It is an intro to helium based gasses.

For some, this will be the only class that they want to take. For others wishing to advance to technical diving, the RecTriox class is part of the GUE Tech 1 class. Some people wish to take it a bit slower in their progression, and this is one means to do that. After passing the RecTriox class, you can then take the second part of Tech1 if you wish. There are different reasons for splitting it up-sometimes skill issues, sometimes scheduling issues.

 

[MikeS]

And I can't help but wonder why the word "Receational" is being used ?

Although “recreational diving” is not well defined, it is generally thought of as no overhead, no decompression diving. At one time gas mixtures other than air were considered “technical” rather than “recreational,” till the widespread acceptance of Nitrox changed that. Recreational triox seems like a logical progression.

Mike

 

[MikeFerrara]

Other agencies are jumping on the recreational trimix band wagon also. IANTD and NAUI both have classes.

Helium is just another tool. The main focus is, I think, skill development.

 

[Genesis]

Niote that Helium is not an unlimited resource, and the supply is quite constrained. There are some estimates that we could literally "run out" before 2010!

Long before this, of course, prices will begin to rise - probably quite dramatically - as supply shrinks.

While diving doesn't consume a significant percentage of the total used, the price issue can be very real.

If you are diving deep (below 150fsw or so) then it certainly makes sense to be using Helium. It might make sense in the 100-150' range, depending on you. Unless you're diving a rebreather (where gas costs are miniscule) it makes essentially no sense above 100'.

IMHO, for most divers who are doing 'no stop' dives this class is a non-starter UNLESS you are using it as a way to take part of Tech 1 (and intend to do the "rest"), AND you have a commitment that you won't buy the Tech1 class twice.

BTW, what's "expensive"? Shops around here are charging in the neighborhood of $50 to fill a single tank with Trimix. Even Fill Express is charging $0.30/cf for it. So an AL80 full is $24 from them, .vs. $5.60 for Nitrox; Fill Express is roughly half the market price in most parts of the country.

Think there just might be an incentive for a shop to want 'ya to take that class? $50 a dive just for the gas, within recreational/no stop times?!

Also note that GUE is requiring DIR-F prior to ANY other class (including Triox.) One would hope that the skill development portion is done in DIR-F.

 

[-hh]

So Who should take Recreational triox course ?? Tekkie to be or pure recreational diver??

Neither.

Its not enough training for a Tek because it doesn't address extended range or deco.

For the Rec, it is risk:benefit "remix" that's IMO a bad one. What it offers is a modestly small reduction in Narcosis risk potential. But what it trades-off to achieve that is: an increased AGE/DCS risks from the addition of Helium, a more complex modeling burden, a higher fiscal cost per dive, no ability to do even very mild deco, no standard dive computer tools, and ZERO bottom-time advantage over standard Nitrox.

My summary position is that its disadvantages outweigh its advantages IMO, unless you're one of the very rare divers who has an unacceptable degree of Narcosis at these recreational depths.

-hh

 

[MikeFerrara]

Think there just might be an incentive for a shop to want 'ya to take that class? $50 a dive just for the gas, within recreational/no stop times?!

Also note that GUE is requiring DIR-F prior to ANY other class (including Triox.) One would hope that the skill development portion is done in DIR-F.

Good point except that many of the GUE instructors aren't teaching through a shop and are usually on the road when they're teaching.

I don't know about the triox class but I think GUE teaches gas mixing along with the class so the student might not be buying expensive fills anyway.

Not really related to the GUE course but as a IANTD instructor the attractive thing about the recreational trimix classes is that it lets me teach all the tools that a diver might want to use at these depths. IANTD also hase an "Advanced" recreational trimix that I can combine with an advanced nitrox class and then the max depth allowed in the class is lowered to 150ft rather than 100ft. Adding the trimix stuff doesn't need to increase the cost of the class that much and having it modular allows Advanced Nitrox to be taught even if the student doesn't want to use trimix or the class is taught in a location where it isn't available.

I don't sell gas so whatever the student spends on gas doesn't do anything for me.

As far as skills, DIRF gets them started but I think the triox class goes a little further.

BTW, what's "expensive"? Shops around here are charging in the neighborhood of $50 to fill a single tank with Trimix. Even Fill Express is charging $0.30/cf for it. So an AL80 full is $24 from them, .vs. $5.60 for Nitrox; Fill Express is roughly half the market price in most parts of the country.

At $0.3 a cubic foot for helium, I come up with $7.2 for the helium in an al80 with 30% helium. Even if they charge for a nitrox fill on top of that it's only $12.8. Where is the $24 comming from?

$50 is way too much. I don't have a booster so useable helium ends up costing me about $0.3 per cubic foot. Even at$0.5 per foot it's still only $12 in helium for an Al80 full of 30%.

Now if you start talking about double 104's overpumped with 15/55% or 10/70% you're talking some money.

 

[Genesis]

Mike, Fill Express charges $0.30/cf for banked 30/30 or 21/35 (your choice) according ot their web page.

Also, realize that with the supply constraints I would not be surprised to see prices doubles for He in the next couple of years, and get progressively nastier after that.

If you have your own compressor of course you can do better, but many people don't.

IMHO this is a "card selling" class with little real utility, even for GUE. I was surprised when I heard that GUE was offering it, as I just don't see the value in the course. I do dives in the 100-140' range on Nitrox all the time and while I know I'm impaired at the bottom end of that range its nowhere near worth $50/dive, or even $30/dive for me.

This also is ignoring the very real issues with faster diffusion (in both directions) for He, and the attendant higher risks of AGE or DCI if you must make an ESA when diving on He based gasses.

IMHO it is irresponsible to teach this class outside of the context of training divers to be fully redundant and to solve all problems underwater; as far as I'm concerned diving a He-based mix is identical to doing a deco dive, even within the NSLs, as the option of a CESA now comes with an increased risk of injury.

As such if I was going to dive 30/30 I'd be doing it in doubles.

 

[diverbrian]

My Adv. Nitrox instructor does dive helium quite a bit (for his cave diving). The higher prices for fills that I see here aren't out of line from what I see him mention. And BTW, as he is the only one out of our shop who dives Helium, the dive shop owner lets him keep a tank at the shop and he fills his own trimix.

Personally, I am comfortable on Nitrox (normally EAN28) to 130 ft. along with the intro into deco diving. I probably wouldn't be interested in Trimix at those depths or above, but would be highly interested in it below those depths. So, in short, a recreational trimix class wouldn't interest me but a trimix course down the line does. Of course, to take it through GUE, I believe that I would have to take DIRF first and that would be more money, LOL.

 

[MHK]

:sorry19z: It's me again. Asking "stupid" question.

I was surfing the net and I found information on Recreational triox course.
As what the website said, a Recreational Triox course is a no-decompression class structured to prepare divers for deeper recreational diving using proper breathing mixtures and correct ascent procedures.

And I can't help but wonder why the word "Receational" is being used ? The Words "Deeper", "Helium" has led my simple brain to think of Technical diving, so how recreation can it be :unsure: and based on my limited diving experience, usually our dive don't exceed 120ft, it is usually round 80 to 100ft . Personally, I will try to keep it within 100ft - depending on dive site) so is there a need for mixed gases (helium etc) though I know they minimize narcosis, CO2, gas density and post dive "nitrogen stress". :small:

And when I click for more information, I notice that student need to read up GUE Tech 1 manual, so doesnt it make the course a Technical diving course :20:

So Who should take Recreational triox course ?? Tekkie to be or pure recreational diver??

The class itself is designed for those that want to more safely explore dives in the 80'-120' range. The introduction of helium and/or nitrox is but one small part of this class. The way I explain this class to students who ask me about it is that it's the advanced class that many of us in the industry have wanted to see for a long time. It's a 6 dive class, spread over 3 intense days that the end goal isn't to worry so much about the ability to purchase and/or dive helium, but to focus divers on more safe diving practices in the ranges of 80' -120'. Concepts such as C02 toxicity, Narcosis, gas density, 02 toxicity, ascent rate strategies, deep stops, unified team diving, gas management and so on are all covered in great detail. So while for certain helium is a component of the class, it is but a small part of what we are trying to accomplish with the introduction of this class.

BTW, our local shops out here charge $18 for a 30/30 mix. Someone posted about $50 and in my view that is an outrageous sum. We also teach people in this class how to blend nitrox and 30/30 so if your shop is charging you $50 perhaps consider buying a few cylinders of Helium and we'll teach you how to blend.

Hope that helps..

Regards