Why Recreational Triox ??

[MikeFerrara]

Sorry but I still don't see the point of the class other than a revenue source for the training agency involved. Nor do I see the need for recreational triox in the real world.

I would recommend that a diver consider the rec triox course as potential alternative to the typical AOW class. Well, I guess they'd also be able to skip the nitrox and deep diver specialty class as well. LOL

What's so complicated about it?

 

[cornfed]

I would recommend that a diver consider the rec triox course as potential alternative to the typical AOW class. Well, I guess they'd also be able to skip the nitrox and deep diver specialty class as well. LOL

What's so complicated about it?

Don't know Mike, makes sense to me.

 

[Genesis]

I would recommend that a diver consider the rec triox course as potential alternative to the typical AOW class. Well, I guess they'd also be able to skip the nitrox and deep diver specialty class as well. LOL

What's so complicated about it?

I agree PROVIDED that if you want the AOW card to get on various charter boats (many are requiring it, particularly in Florida nowdays) that you check with some of them FIRST to make sure they'll consider it an "equivalent", since GUE has not branded it that way.

The tougher choice is whether there is value for someone who already has an AOW and Nitrox card....

 

[Davey_Willo]

Well here's my perspective on the benefits of a Rec Triox class for me.

A couple of seasons back as a relatively new diver I dived a wreck called the Rhonda off the west coast of Scotland, this wreck lies vertically against the rocks and drops to 55m to the seabed, we as a group of three decided we pick our max depth of 35m and work our way back up the wreck.

I led the decent and we basically did a freefall down the side of the wreck finally stopping at 36m, when we got to that depth it was pitch black and feezing cold, an environment that I hadn't really expected what with this being my deepest dive at that time.

As we swum onto the wreck I was suddenly hit with the feeling that my air was running out, I tried not to panic and took another breath but unfortunately it felt even worse then the last one (I'd just checked my air and so I knew it was ok) I tried to calm down telling myself that what I was suffering was a bad narcosis hit brought on by various factors but it didn't help knowing the facts, it didn't stop the feeling that I was suffocating.

Instead of turning to my buddies for help, instead of asking for an octopus or asking them to check my valve to make sure it was open (All of the basic simple things we all believe we would do in the same situation) I went inside myself and basically started to collapse with fear.

The only thing I could think of was that I was over a hundred feet from the surface, it was pitch black, it was freezing cold and I was about to die, a voice inside my head was screaming at me to bolt, to get to the surface as quickly as possible and I very nearly did, I was this close to becoming a statistic.

Fortunately I didn't bolt and I made my way up the wreck just living on the edge of panic until I neared the surface and of course I survived the incident, but it scarred me for life, I have never been so scared in all of my 45 years of existence on this planet and the fear of that feeling returning haunts me on every dive I've done since then.

I'm fairly sure that my problems were brought about by all of the things that the Rec Triox class is trying to prevent, i.e. Narcosis, Increased Gas Density, CO2 Retention etc etc

I've since completed the fundy class taught by MHK and AG in the UK last November and I fully intend to take the RecTriox with them too. I could opt to bypass Rec Triox and jump straight into Tech 1, but for the recreational diving that I'm currently doing then this class is perfect.

I'm sure that the guys teaching this class wouldn't expect me to try and use 30/30 on every dive I do and so I'm not sure what this whole debate is about, I'm expecting them to give me the tools to make my own decisions on which gas is required (for me) for any particular dive... i.e. If I'm doing a 20 odd metre (60-70ft) dive on a reef then I would choose 32% but if I'm about to dive the wreck I've just described then I'd pick 30/30 because for me, that dive turned nasty real quick and I don't ever want to experience anything like that again

So as far as I'm concerned you can all argue till you're blue in the face, for me the Rec Triox class will be of a great benefit to me and my type of UK diving.

Best Regards
Dave Williamson

 

[DeepScuba]

Then they're gonna ask you.

The CLASS (Rec Triox) or

The MIX.

This I guess is the brunt.

Actually I even wanna ask you.........that dive described.........the class, or the mix.

I feel it was just a "newb" problem brought on by a new environment.

NOW you could do the same dive, on air, and your increased diving skills and familiarity with the sport would allow you to do it with ease.

Regards, and welcome Dave.

DS.

 

[-hh]

Or in the interest of equal time...discuss the lack of merits of the Rec Triox class.

Sorry but after 19 pages of arguing I don't see the point of the class other than a revenue source for the training agency involved. Nor do I see the need for recreational triox in the real world. The envelop between depths where EAN or air works and where a full blown trimix course and normoxix trimix is required is narrow is just too narrow for me to see the usefulness of recreational triox.

Agreed.

Specifically, if you want a EAD<100fsw and ppO2< 1.4, you can dive EAN32 to 111fsw, but Triox only gets you to 121fsw...that's a whopping ten feet.

If you bump your max ppO2 to 1.5 (120 minutes versus 150 minutes for 1.4 - - YMMV if this is a big or small change in Tox risk), EAN32 now gets you to 120fsw with an EAD of 103ft. And with the +0.1, Triox will now get you +10ft deeper too, but the risks for both are now starting to head up, and the operational window is still only 10ft wide.


I'm not being critical of the other elements of the class. What I am essentially questioning is if the benefit from Triox is significant enough to justify its inclusion with the rest, because if its not, then classtime shouldn't be wasted on it.

Cynically, I do have to agree with DA's "revenue source" comment, although the slant I'd put on it is "Marketing Gambit for Product Differentiation" for GUE does want/need to teach Nitrox at some point.


-hh

 

[MHK]

I'm not being critical of the other elements of the class. What I am essentially questioning is if the benefit from Triox is significant enough to justify its inclusion with the rest, because if its not, then classtime shouldn't be wasted on it.

Cynically, I do have to agree with DA's "revenue source" comment, although the slant I'd put on it is "Marketing Gambit for Product Differentiation" for GUE does want/need to teach Nitrox at some point.


-hh

hh,

I expect that if you actually took a class, or appreciated the totality of the class, you would have a different view, or perhaps if you weren't so pre-disposed to a point of view as well. You started this thread in your first post having already concluded that the class isn't for you, after 19 pages of debate you ceede that you aren't taking issues with any other aspect of the class other then the introduction of helium for dives in the ranges of 100' to 120' and offer that "classtime shouldn't be wasted on it"..

I suspect our view is that in the context of a 3 day class that discussing hypercapnia, gas density, narcosis et. al isn't a waste of time at all. In fact, any true deep diving class that fails to address these issues seems to be a "waste of time". At GUE we set out to be an alternative training agency to those that were currently available prior to JJ starting GUE. If some still want a deep diving class that doesn't cover hypercapnia, gas density, narcosis et. al then I suspect there are many classes available. Prior to taking the GUE class I had done a PADI "deep" diving class and several IANTD classes all the way through full Trimix and the issue of hypercapnia wasn't covered in any of the classes. Moreover, I was required to pass a deep air class as a pre-requisite to moving to trimix training. If you want to talk about marketing gambits perhaps you are correct we do want to differentiate ourselves from that type of marketing. We don't think we need to sell our students the following, which was my required path to Trimix under IANTD:

1) Nitrox ( up to 40%)
2) Advanced Nitrox ( 41% to 50%)
3) Technical Nitrox ( 51% to 100%)
4) Advanced Deep Air ( air to 170')
5) Normoxic trimix ( Trimix to 200')
6) Full Trimix ( Trimix deeper then 200')

That's 6 classes to get to where I wound up with only 2 at GUE ( DIR-F) & (Tech 1).. You guys that keep going on about GUE trying to make all of this money through marketing gimmicks fail to see the forrest from the trees.

It's rather pointless debating the issue with you since you simply aren't qualified to compare our classes with anything since you have NEVER seen ANY of our classes. That would sort of be similiar to me comparing an accounting class from Harvard University [ which I did NOT attend] to an accounting class from St. John's University [ which I did attend]. In simple parlance, in order to compare two things you must have a basis of reference for both, which you clearly do not.. BTW, would you compare the food at a restaurant that you've never eaten at with a restaurant that you have eaten at???

Sorry, hh but's it's clear you're just trolling, please leave that for rec.scuba..

Later

 

[MikeFerrara]

We don't think we need to sell our students the following, which was my required path to Trimix under IANTD:

1) Nitrox ( up to 40%)
2) Advanced Nitrox ( 41% to 50%)
3) Technical Nitrox ( 51% to 100%)
4) Advanced Deep Air ( air to 170')
5) Normoxic trimix ( Trimix to 200')
6) Full Trimix ( Trimix deeper then 200')

That's 6 classes to get to where I wound up with only 2 at GUE ( DIR-F) & (Tech 1).. You guys that keep going on about GUE trying to make all of this money through marketing gimmicks fail to see the forrest from the trees.

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't tech 1 stop at 150 or 160? So you'd need three class with GUE correct?

You're list above is essentially tha path that I took except tecnical nitrox = advanced deep air (170 on air using up to 100% O2 for deco) but it isn't required to be done that way. The IANTD classes can be combined to get it done in three classes also and without ever doing any deep air dives.

One possible option would be (and there is more than one option)

1, Nitrox combined with deep diver (formerly called deep air but the depth limit is 130 ft)

2, Advanced nitrox (which could also be combined with recreational trimix)

3, technical diver combined with trimix.

There's a bunch of ways it can be organized but the point is that deep air diving isn't required and it can be done in three classes

To make it look more like the GUE line up you could combine normoxic trimix with technical divers and go on to full trimix.

 

[MHK]

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't tech 1 stop at 150 or 160? So you'd need three class with GUE correct?

You're list above is essentially tha path that I took except tecnical nitrox = advanced deep air (170 on air using up to 100% O2 for deco) but it isn't required to be done that way. The IANTD classes can be combined to get it done in three classes also and without ever doing any deep air dives.

One possible option would be (and there is more than one option)

1, Nitrox combined with deep diver (formerly called deep air but the depth limit is 130 ft)

2, Advanced nitrox (which could also be combined with recreational trimix)

3, technical diver combined with trimix.

There's a bunch of ways it can be organized but the point is that deep air diving isn't required and it can be done in three classes

To make it look more like the GUE line up you could combine normoxic trimix with technical divers and go on to full trimix.

Mike,

I think they've since changed the path with more available options, I was speaking directly to the path that I took. My larger point to hh, was in addressing his "marketing" comments. I'm still mystified in how people suspect that we are all about marketing. We limit our class sizes to the smallest in the industry, we require specific gear, we make the DIR-F classes pre-requisites and we tell people day in and day out that our training isn't for everyone and that perhaps they should seek training elsewhere from an agency that wants to be more forgiving in terms of personal preference choices. Given that, I suspect we should fire our marketing department because they certainly aren't making things easy for us.. Oh wait!! We don't have a marketing department!!!

It's obvious to me that hh & Genesis have no real desire to understand the issue(s). What they are doing is trolling under the guise of "I'm just trying to understand", which they then believe provides them cover for their trolls. I've answered their questions to the best of my ability and both of them have concluded that the training isn't for them. I wish them the best of luck and hope they find the training that they seek elsewhere. Life is just too short to continue exchanges with the likes of them two..

Sorry for the confusion, I was really speaking to the larger point..

Later

 

[DeepScuba]

Well hey MHK, you did say you had accounting at St. John's University......surely they told you that paying for 3 classes is better than 2!!!!

heheheh.

Just struck me funny.

I think this horse is ready to serve.