Why Recreational Triox ??

[-hh]

My larger point to hh, was in addressing his "marketing" comments.

Personally, I recognize the significance of public perceptions, which is why I explicitly said that that was a cynical viewpoint. Its not the only possible interpretation: people will all develop their own opinions.

It's obvious to me that hh & Genesis have no real desire to understand the issue(s).

And that's your perception of me.

I do really want to understand if this product, and in particular what your claimed Triox benefits are so that I can independently investigate them, and determine (a) if they exist, (b) if they are significant, (c) their operational value and (b) specific relevance to my diving needs.

For example, to date, you've not delivered anything scientifically substantiative on your claims regarding the significance of ppCO2 reduction.

I've answered their questions to the best of my ability...

I see. And since when is that my fault? If you're unqualified to really answer my questions, please just say so.

Afterall, since the GUE Instructor's Database only has you listed to teach DIR-F, it doesn't appear that you're currently certified to teach GUE Rec Triox. Are you?

and both of them have concluded that the training isn't for them.

Its just the Triox portion. I'm concluding that Triox element isn't applicable to "most" Rec divers, because of intimate familiarity with this mode of diving, what's missing from your case for it, plus familiarity with current and past fads in sport diving. If you disagree and think it is, please provide your rationale and lay out its basis, point by point.

Granted, there are a lot of things that are generically a "good thing", such as minimizing EAD, N2 & ppCO2, but all of these need to undergo a significance test to determine what degree of "better" is operationally relevant and significant enough to prompt its adoption.

For example, you've done this with EAD <100fsw. I'll even say that ppO2 < 1.4 would have been covered had we explicitly discussed it. But one thing that's missing is your criterion for ppCO2. Until you can identify that criteria, I'm not buying your claims that something that isn't measured is an essential element to a profound problem within Rec depths.

That's my personal rationale. If you can provide more insight, great. If you see logical oversights, even better. One of my objectives is risk recognition & management for a classical Rec dive to classical Rec Depths. If Triox is an essential and irreplacable tool for this objective, you have personally failed to be sufficiently convincing and substantiative.

I wish them the best of luck and hope they find the training that they seek elsewhere. Life is just too short to continue exchanges with the likes of them two..

Personally, there's some GUE training that I'd like to take. I'm simply not interested in taking training that is of highly limited operational value regardless of who its from...my search for quality does not begin and end just because it has the "GUE" name on the top.

For example, nose-counting the number of GUE classes vs IANTD is empty posturing when it is not normalized by other relevent factors, such as training duration and costs.

My apologies if I am a more demanding customer than what you would prefer to deal with, and have undermined your efforts to troll for new customers. I encourage everyone to critically evaluate all offered products prior to purchase, be they training or hardware.


-hh

 

[Genesis]

I find it amazing that MHK has "free license" to launch personal insults here without having the TOS - which specifically bans this sort of thing - being enforced.

 

[detroit diver]

I find it amazing that MHK has "free license" to launch personal insults here without having the TOS - which specifically bans this sort of thing - being enforced.

And I find it amazing that you are allowed to spew misinformation as a substitute for fact.

 

[Big-t-2538]

I find it amazing that this thread hasn't yet been locked....as I don't see anymore useful info being exchanged regarding TriOx.

 

[detroit diver]

I find it amazing that this thread hasn't yet been locked....as I don't see anymore useful info being exchanged regarding TriOx.

I think someone lost the key......

 

[MHK]

I do really want to understand if this product, and in particular what your claimed Triox benefits are so that I can independently investigate them, and determine (a) if they exist, (b) if they are significant, (c) their operational value and (b) specific relevance to my diving needs.

For example, to date, you've not delivered anything scientifically substantiative on your claims regarding the significance of ppCO2 reduction.

I see. And since when is that my fault? If you're unqualified to really answer my questions, please just say so.

Afterall, since the GUE Instructor's Database only has you listed to teach DIR-F, it doesn't appear that you're currently certified to teach GUE Rec Triox. Are you?

You then need to learn how to read because it clearly states on the GUE website my credentials to teach Triox.

Secondly, given the vast amount of time that I've spent trying to explain the concept(s) to you, I suspect that at some point you just won't get it over a scuba forum, or don't want to get it.. As I've noted, scuba forums have limited application, I've tried to explain it to the best of my ability and if you still don't get it then please don't take the class. I realize that you've spent many years on rec.scuba honing your trolling skills, I unsubscribed to that list long ago because I have no desire to continue to play sophmoric games. I've offered you my phone number to call me to discuss the issue, but you've declined. You also note that the answers you seek you haven't received over a scuba forum. If you really "want to understand" then one must ask why haven't you taken the offer unless your true objective is to posture???

Again, please leave that nonsense for the children at rec.scuba..

Its just the Triox portion. I'm concluding that Triox element isn't applicable to "most" Rec divers, because of intimate familiarity with this mode of diving, what's missing from your case for it, plus familiarity with current and past fads in sport diving. If you disagree and think it is, please provide your rationale and lay out its basis, point by point.

To the extent I can, or I am willing, over a scuba forum I've gone as far as I will. If you've missed it then please feel free to conclude the class isn't for you. It's clear to me that your desire to "understand" is a cover story for your desire to troll. You are one of the reasons why I don't waste my time on rec.scuba..

Granted, there are a lot of things that are generically a "good thing", such as minimizing EAD, N2 & ppCO2, but all of these need to undergo a significance test to determine what degree of "better" is operationally relevant and significant enough to prompt its adoption.

If that is the case, and given that I've stipulated time and again that the hypercapnia benefits are subject and vary day to day and diver to diver, please state the "significance test" for narcosis.. In other words, they are both subjective and can't be scientifically quantifed, which is the red-herring that you continue to advance..C02 retention reduction is but one small tool in the tool box of the class.

That's my personal rationale. If you can provide more insight, great. If you see logical oversights, even better. One of my objectives is risk recognition & management for a classical Rec dive to classical Rec Depths. If Triox is an essential and irreplacable tool for this objective, you have personally failed to be sufficiently convincing and substantiative.

If I thought you were serious I'd try again, but IMO you aren't. Besides, we recognize this class isn't for everyone and I strongly suspect that this class isn't for you. But your goal here isn't to try to "understand" the class, your goal here is to try to discredit the class to everyone and given the amount of PM's that I've received, your methodolgy is as transparent as your desire to "understand" the class.

Personally, there's some GUE training that I'd like to take. I'm simply not interested in taking training that is of highly limited operational value regardless of who its from

Then don't take the class, what more can I say???

For example, nose-counting the number of GUE classes vs IANTD is empty posturing when it is not normalized by other relevent factors, such as training duration and costs.

I agree, and all the IANTD classes that I cited were, at the time, "required classes", cost more and were shorter in duration. For example, $600 for a 2 day class to learn how to use Nitrox from 41%-50%.. Now that was a real valuable class, but if I wanted to go on to Trimix, at the time, there were no other options so you were stuck..

My apologies if I am a more demanding customer than what you would prefer to deal with, and have undermined your efforts to troll for new customers. I encourage everyone to critically evaluate all offered products prior to purchase, be they training or hardware.

The product is always available to evaluate, but it's like selling a Republican agenda last night at the Iowa caucuses, the "consumer" has a pre-disposed and biased opinion, and so do you, IMHO..

Regards

 

[MikeFerrara]

If Triox is an essential and irreplacable tool for this objective, you have personally failed to be sufficiently convincing and substantiative.


-hh

nitrox isn't an essential and irreplacable tool either. Do you argue so strongly against it's use?

 

[diverbrian]

I agree, and all the IANTD classes that I cited were, at the time, "required classes", cost more and were shorter in duration. For example, $600 for a 2 day class to learn how to use Nitrox from 41%-50%.. Now that was a real valuable class, but if I wanted to go on to Trimix, at the time, there were no other options so you were stuck..

Neither for or against your class, my Advanced Nitrox took four months. It was four classroom meetings over four months and we couldn't get to the charters to actually do the dives in "real life situations" until late June. I started in Feb. It was one instructor, two observers/helpers (who had just passed the course), and two students. Oh, and I forgot the pool session to get us started on our skills so that we knew what to expect in the OW. It was two days at Gilboa after that and one day on the Monrovia.

Actually, this was at my comfort level as it allowed me time to get used to the different philosphy of diving between IANTD/"tech world" (solve underwater problems underwater and then thumb the dive if you need to after doing appropriate deco and safety stops) and SSI/"strictly recreational" (You are always in non-stop limits, so simply end the dive if you run into a serious problem). Diving doubles with a hogarthian rig was also a major "shock to my system" at the time and I would not have been able to learn all of this in a weekend. I would have wound up paying for two courses instead of having a patient, local instructor who took us through one course by spreading out the sessions.

I am still waiting for time/money/and an instructor to take a technical diver/normoxic tri-mix course. That will be a while yet but I am patient. And when I take it, I will expect to put more effort into it than I had to for my Deep Diver/Adv. Nitrox.

 

[Davey_Willo]

Then they're gonna ask you.

The CLASS (Rec Triox) or

The MIX.

This I guess is the brunt.

Actually I even wanna ask you.........that dive described.........the class, or the mix.

I feel it was just a "newb" problem brought on by a new environment.

NOW you could do the same dive, on air, and your increased diving skills and familiarity with the sport would allow you to do it

with ease.

Regards, and welcome Dave.

DS.

HI DS

Thanks for the welcome mate, although as you can see I've been a member since May 01, It's just that I've just been in lurk mode all of this time.

Ok in answer to your question, first let me say that yes I was a newb in new territory, and I understand that yourself and many others will think that my dilemma was brought about by the fact that it was cold and dark and that I was indeed inexperienced, but I was there and I can truthfully attest to the fact that these elements were not a problem and definitely not the trigger.

I was as happy as a sandboy as I started my swim towards the wreck, happy because I was doing something that I'm absolutely in love with, happy because I'd just set a new depth record for myself and also that I'd achieved the 35m that was required for the 'Dive Leader' certification that I was training for. I felt no concern whatsoever at that time, and the cold and the darkness wasn't an issue for me at all... I'm in the UK remember, it's standard to be cold and dark

I remember swimming towards the wreck and thinking to myself that the water felt, somehow thicker, LOL, now I realise that sounds extremely silly but that was the feeling for me at that time, it felt like my progress was very slow and it was taking me ages to cover the gap to the wreck.

Just as I reached the wreck one of my breaths on the regulator suddenly felt very tight, it felt as though my regulator hadn't given me enough air for some reason and so of course I tugged on it again but it felt even worse, my third breath was one long hard gasp only to find that I most definitely wasn't getting enough air.. Or of course, as we all now know, my mind was playing tricks on me and I only thought that I wasn't getting enough air.

That was the trigger as far as I'm concerned DS, it was then that I suddenly felt like I was about to die, and it was then and only then that the depth and the cold and the darkness enveloped me.

I'm absolutely 100% convinced that my problem was a combination of narcosis, increased gas density and c02 retention, made worse by my then increasingly rapid shallow breathing all contributing to making me feel that my regulator could not supply enough air for me to survive..

At that depth and now adding the elements of the cold, the darkness and the inexperience and it became a terrifying experience, that at that time I really didn't think I was going to survive.... suffocation is a scary thing.

So... Do I think the class or the mix?. well I would have to say that I think that the mix would have made all of the difference on that particular dive on that particular day, I've since had the opportunity to dive 30/30 on a dive site which I'd just previously dived on air and it was like chalk and cheese.

Where the first dive had been a bit of an eerie experience, the second dive on 30/30 was, as I descibed to my friend that day, like someone had been down there and cleaned and polished all of the rocks... it was truly funny, everything looked crisper cleaner and I felt much more in control, it was a completely different dive from the first.

So where does the Rec Triox come into it???

Well for me to be able to use He in the 30-40m range which is currently my desire, if I went say the TDI route, then I would need..
TDI Basic Nitrox, TDI Advanced Nitrox, TDI Decompression Procedures, and finally TDI Entry Level Trimix

Now granted, that would certify me to use normoxic mixes to over 60m but that is not what is required here, I want to dive to wrecks in the 30-40m range safely, comfortably and in control of my senses.

Enter GUE.. I now need to take DIR-F followed by Rec Triox and I'm done.

As I say I've already passed the fundy class and so my next step is Rec Triox which is absolutely perfect for me.

I wouldn't dream of using 30/30 on anything any shallower than 30-40m as it's not required for my senses and it's too cost prohibitive, but I'm sure that that is exactly what the instructors at GUE expect, That divers will use nitrox for most of their dives and use the 30/30 when they feel that it is required but GUE have given us the tools to be able choose and use as we see fit..

Added to that I will also be extending my GUE training which encompasses oh so much more than any gas choice, and if you've never taken a GUE class then I'd urge you to try one, they are a real eye opener...

If I may say this in defence of GUE training, people are much more likely to moan about something then give credit, that is human nature after all and yet one can find many glowing reports on all of the GUE class's on many forums and mailing lists from around the world, but I've yet to find one where a person is complaining about the class, it's contents, or it's instructors.

So irrelevant of all of the high brow arguments that have been going on in this thread, from one person's perspective I can say with hand on heart that for me the Rec Triox class does have a place.

Sorry for the long and boring rant... It looks like I've made up for keeping quiet for over two years all in one post... sorry guys

Best Regards
Dave.

 

[-hh]

You then need to learn how to read because it clearly states on the GUE website my credentials to teach Triox.

My statement was based on this page: http://www.gue.com/info/instruct.shtml. I do see that if I dig down a level, that it is now listed. My apologies - I stand corrected.

I realize that you've spent many years on rec.scuba honing your trolling skills...

I chose to overlook your first half dozen troll trolls, but for this purposefully repeated malicious insult, I expect an apology; your post has been reported to the Moderators. I'm sorry Gentlemen.

I've offered you my phone number to call me to discuss the issue, but you've declined.

You already know why: I declined because I wanted it in writing.

If you really "want to understand" then one must ask why haven't you taken the offer unless your true objective is to posture???

You don't understand: "put it in writing" is the same approach I used when negotiating contracts. If you've ever been involved in contract disputes, you might understand the wisdom of this.

Again, please leave that nonsense for the children at rec.scuba..

Another Ad Homenium insult.

It's clear to me that your desire to "understand" is a cover story for your desire to troll...

Another Ad Homenium insult.

If that is the case, and given that I've stipulated time and again that the hypercapnia benefits are subject and vary day to day and diver to diver, please state the "significance test" for narcosis..

The significance test for Narcosis is subjective, but it is traditionally based on the changes in ppN2. Insofar as any contribution of ppCO2 as a potential for hypercapnia or its narcotic effect, you've failed to demonstrate that ppCO2 changes one iota when you switch from Air or EAN to Triox, let alone what might be an effective criteria or not.

IMO, you've fallen into a "more is better" mindset and have forgotten the principle of: "better is the enemy of good enough".

But your goal here isn't to try to "understand" the class, your goal here is to try to discredit the class to everyone and given the amount of PM's that I've received, your methodolgy is as transparent as your desire to "understand" the class.

My goal is to be able to critically examine the value of the course, so that I can express my own opinion about it, including if I want to personally take it. As I've already said repeatedly, I think much of the class is quite worthwhile. The element of the class that I am personally unconvinced of its material value is the Triox portion. This is in the context of what I consider to be Recreational Diving, and not Wreck or Overhead.

Based on your continuous objections and insults, it seems that what you're really saying is that I don't have a right to a personal opinion when it is contrary to yours.

-hh