Why not Fundies?

[jbd]

The skills mastery for the fundamentals class should not be exclusive to one group of divers.....

It is not impossible to have excellent skills and wear a BC. So why can't someone show people how to have excellent skills in one? They can, but a majority of divers just don't care that much about honing their skills to the level of Fundamentals.

Thats why it should be taught in a regualr OW course.

 

[Walter]

The goals of the course and the specific topics covered, as well as the skills you should be able to perform to pass the course, are quite clearly spelled out on the GUE website (here).

Yes, I researched it a few years ago, but making that material more readily available (a like when recruiting for classes) would help your cause.

The two GUE instructors with whom I have had the good fortune to work are two of the three best scuba instructors I've seen. And I think every single report of a GUE class I've read has praised the instructor. It's my suspicion that the instructor training that GUE does really works on teaching skills -- either that, or they're just succeeding in recruiting people with exceptional teaching talent to begin with.

I'm glad to hear it.

Why is the failure rate high? Because the standards are high, and because most of us come into the class so far from meeting them that there is little hope that we can be brought up to standards in three days. This, I think, is the reason for the provisional pass. The class introduces you to the skills and ideas, but you have to go off on your own and work to truly MASTER them. You don't pass until you meet the standard, period. Personally, I LIKE that, even though it took me every bit of the six allowed months (plus a fudge factor) to reach standards. But when I passed the checkout dive, I knew I had accomplished something.

I also like the fact you can fail. No class should ever be an automatic pass. OTOH, if the failure rate is high, that indicates a problem. Not that standards should be lowered (heaven forbid, there's way too much of than in some other agencies), but that the class should be lengthened. If the material and adequate practice can't be covered in 3 days, make it a 4 or 5 day course. People can reach high standards if they know it is expected of them, if they are shown how to reach the objective and they have time to practice. No one should be happy with a high failure rate. If I taught my OW class as a 2 day special (like all too many) I'd rarely have anyone pass. I don't think that's a good idea, so I schedule more time for the class.

 

[Walter]

The material is well taught and the is adequate time to cover the material i.e. the academic stuff. The problem for most people is the in water skill set based on the academic stuff. The performance standards are high and the instructors don't back down from those standards. It takes many folks more time to actaully master the in water skills than is available in one weekend. Just like it does for regular OW diving.

So more time should be scheduled.

 

[michaelb51]

For those of you who would consider taking Fundies

Why not? We've had a couple of classes here in Seattle not fill, and it puzzles me. It's SUCH a good class, and I keep reading of people who are unhappy they can't get access to such a class. And here we are in the Puget Sound region, loaded with divers, and spots are going empty.

Do you not have the equipment? Is it too expensive? Are you too far from anywhere where the class is held? Is it the reputation for difficulty that's stopping you?

No need to hear from those who wouldn't take the class if their life depended on it, now . . .

Just change the title to something that refers to mastery of air and water and the classes would fill up, IMHO. As is, DIR-F might be mistakenly perceived as purchasing one's return to plebe status, or pledging to the Scubatology cult.

BTW, you don't officially refer to it as "fundies" do you? Sounds like a good name for feather-lined Speedos. So, what is the official, printed title of the course? Is there a link? <-- sorry. you posted it while I typed...mb

 

[Peter Guy]

The more responses I read, the more I become convinced that I was correct in my first post that THE primary reason people don't take Fundies (or Essentials and I will put the two of them together) has really very little to do with "the excuses" but because the Marketing of the class and concept has been so abysmal. Yes, the learning of the skills taught in these two classes is not for the "average" recreational diver -- that is, the one that might do 5, or maybe, gasp, 10, dives a year while on vacation being led around by a DM.

BUT, someone who is going to be diving on a regular basis (what, 10% of the diving population?) on her own IS (or should be) the target market for this class. The entities providing the class (in these two cases, GUE and Breakthrough D) have done almost nothing to explain WHY they are worth every penny (which they are).

As a hobby, I've been running Dressage Clinics (Dressage is sitting on a horse and going around in 20 metre circles -- as boring as hell) for a number of years -- I charge $190 for a 45 minute session with the clinician. I have very seldom had a problem filling all my time slots -- why? Because the education as to WHY a rider needs to work with the particular clinician has been done (in the particular case, including books that have become a "bible" and videos that have been widely praised in the Dressage world -- not to mention widely advertised!). And several of my "regulars" scrimp and save to make sure they have enough $'s to sign up for the clinics -- it is NOT just for "the rich."

BUT, if the entities are unwilling, or unable, to:

1. Educate the public as to why the class has value more than the $300 (which I believe it does);

2. Create a schedule program which gives people sufficient notice so that they can arrange their lives to fit the schedule (that means scheduling at least 6 months in advance); and

3. Let people know what the real costs are (is it just a $25 5' hose -- my only equipment change to take Essentials was the 5' hose and I did break down and buy a pair of Jets from someone on SB for $80(?) -- something I was going to do sometime anyway) --

there will continue to be problems with spaces going empty.

BTW, TSandM, there is such a thing as a guerilla marketing program which would probably be quite effective for these two entities. Some "converts" need to write class reports and get them published in the local dive mags (one thing local mags desperately need is content) explaining how the class has made you a better recreational diver.

Also, IF, as some others have written, GUE (and by implication, BD) don't "want" the "great unwashed" to take their classes and that is why they do such an abysmal job of marketing, then they are as arrogant as many suspect and don't deserve to be successful!

 

[Swan1172]

By enforcing a specific gear type in a class based on "fundamentals" you create that division. And while the class is a good price, the equipment requirements are not. That few hundred for the plate, few hundred for the wing, new fins, new hoses, second reg, etc is a huge financial commitment for people and defines exactly who is going to fork up for a "fundamentals" class.

This is one of the best reasons that GUE should offer an OW class. I know that it has been under consideration, but getting new divers into DIR gear to begin with would most certainly help eliminate the division to which you alluded. You are more likely to get a diver to continue into DIR-F if they are already have the right gear. Compare that to a diver that just spent $$$ on new equipment only to find out that it is not usable in DIR-F.

 

[ppo2_diver]

I hate these "DIR vs. the world" type threads. But I would like to make a couple observations and creep back into my corner.

One of the things that people who have not taken the fundies class fixate on is the equipment. We spent all of 20 minutes going over equipment in my fundies class. 15 of those minutes were spent just making sure the BP/W were sized correctly. The rest of the class was spent on dive planning, situtational awareness, and diving skills.

People must get over the "DIR equipment" in order to get what DIR is truley about. It is about learning situational awareness. This is really the heart of the fundies course. But because many people are lacking proficiency in the basic skills required for diving (buoyancy, trim, propulsion, mask skills, etc.) is why many people do not get the full DIR experience that the fundies class can produce. The course is designed to make thinking divers.

GUE is not like PADI. They don't want to certify everyone in the world. GUE only wants great divers in their ranks. This is why they have set the standard so high. Anybody know what a "weed" (no, not that type of weed) class is in college? It is a course that is designed to be so hard, that it "weeds" out the people who do not have the commitment and determination to tough it out. People who take the fundies class and believe in DIR will continue to practice those skills and go back for re-evaluations and maybe even take other GUE classes. But it tests ones commitment and dedication to diving.

 

[jbd]

So more time should be scheduled.

Time in the form of # of days involved is already an issue of resistance. The better thing would have been for them not make it a certification course. It should have stayed as an experience seminar.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I don't know an epiphany maybe or a dream in which Uncle Pug swims into my head and tells me to DIRF.....

Diving with Uncle Pug is always an epiphany ... every time you think you're getting good you'll look at something he's doing and realize that you have much yet to learn. The other day we were diving through a bunch of tumbled pipe-like structures and there he was, completely inverted making these little helicopter motions with his fins to move around in between, over, and under the pipes while taking pictures. Seeing someone wearing a drysuit, fins up, and controlling motion in all dimensions at will without moving anything but his ankles and fins is pretty impressive ... and ya won't learn it in DIR-F.

To me the things that would ease the way would be:

Some equipment flexibility that would allow use of at least some of my existing equipment. I'm ok with a long hose setup, but my Transpac stays.

A shorter intro course call it "Intro to DIRF" if you want. It would be a smaller step up and one that for me would help confirm if I was ready.

They have such a class ... it's called "Essentials" ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I was considering taking fundies until;
-my son got insulted and browbeaten by a group from 5th-d because he was diving a rebreather.
-A student of mine was told he would die because I was teaching him with independant double.
-I was on a boat with some 5th-d folks again who not only didn't want to dive at the same time as us but didn't eat with us or even talk with us.
-I saw a big discussion on scubaboard about whether a yellow 7ft hose was DIR.

(walks away shaking his head)

Hmmm ... Dave, was that about four years ago? There was a group of serious ... um ... male genitalia ... who associated with the shop for a while, went through as many classes as they could, insulted everybody they possibly could, damn near destroyed the shop's reputation in the process, then decided they'd reached the pinnacle and went on to be "the best" at other recreational pursuits. Most of them don't even dive anymore.

The folks I know at 5th D these days are not at all like that. Many of them volunteer to take out newly-minted OW grads on the monthly mentor dives, and you couldn't ask for a friendlier bunch to hang out with during surface interval ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)