Why isn't the Freedom Plate DIR compliant?

[Akimbo]

It's also not a change over issue, it's a fit and comfort issue. People would not know this who have never tried the plate.
Maybe a few reading this who have used both can testify to what they like about the shape and comfort of the Freedom Plate over the standard plate that made them never go back to a standard plate for single tank diving...

I qualify. There is no comparison. The Freedom Plate is far more comfortable.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

I understand this in principle. The important question is whether or not people have fit and comfort issues with the plates they have. I don't, personally. Are you solving a problem that exists or creating one that you have a solution for? The trade off of "improved comfort" over "reduced flexibility to standardize my kit" is a tradeoff that divers will have to evaluate.

As you said, some GUE/DIR divers are using your kit. Clearly it can be incorporated by trained DIR divers. It may be tricky to get by in a class with one but I'm pretty sure most of us take what we're trained in, pass it through a filter of what makes sense to us and then adapts our personal diving around those tweaks.

Most folks are not robots manufactured in a GUE training factory.

It's not that standard plates don't work, it's that there's a plate for singles that IMO works better.
It would be like driving a car with no power steering or power brakes for years, yes it works. But then when you drive a car with power steering
and power brakes and get used to it it becomes very hard to go back. But if you never drove a car with power steering and power brakes you wouldn't know what they are like.
So I didn't solve any particular problem per say, I just improved on something.
Seats in cars back in the old days worked but seats now are far superior in fit and comfort with lumbar support, side support, and overall ergonomics. A milk crate works too but the most modern improved designs work better.
So in my thinking, if somebody has chosen the option of just single tank diving or having a single tank only rig all set up why not have one that works better and is more comfortable, providing that they have the extra cash to buy a separate rig.

Does $200 seem a lot for a single tank only plate?
Dan was advocating having two H plates all set up ready to go, one for doubles and one for singles, just for the convenience of saving some time. Hey, he's got the cash so why not?
Well then why not make the single rig a Freedom Plate instead of another H plate? the price is the same but the freedom plate works better for singles, but you wouldn't know that because you've never tried one.


I want people to do an experiment, if they have the time.
Take a plain standard plate with no webbing on it, just the bare plate, and set it on a friends back where you would normally set the plate. move it around and press it firmly onto the person you're using as a model Move it up and down and rock it like a teeter totter on their shoulder blades. Notice the angle at which the plate is sitting when it is resting below the shoulder blades on the inverted slope of your subjects back. Raise the plate up and try to angle it on the shoulder blades to make it straight with the axis of your models average verticle line. You'll see that the plate will only contact the shoulder blades leaving the top and bottom of the plate not touching the back. This is because the plate is straight up and down and your back has two basic angles (we learned this in art class). From the peak of the shoulder blades to the base of the neck is one general plain which slopes inward at the top. And the other area from the peak of the shoulder blades down to the small of the back is the other plain. So from the side you see what looks like low lying mountain turned 90 degrees.
If you also notice, you will see there is a valley in between the shoulder blades which is substantially lower that the peak of the shoulder blades.
This is the gradual and steady curve of the spinal area. The shape from the neck down to the lower back forms a nice gradual S shape.
What I did with the Freedom Plate was to narrow it down to get inside of the shoulder blades and I shaped it to fit the gradual S curve of the spinal area so that the plate contacts the entire surface of where it sits to distribute the weight and pressure of the rig. Along with the narrowing I also widened the waist area so that it would cradle the waist area and reduce sideways sliding of the rig, so in essence it "grips" a little bit giving it stability.

The problem with standard plates for single tanks is that they are too wide and they are straight up and down and don't fit the shape of the human back. If you were to try and ride them up onto the shoulder blades they would cause a really bad pinch and pressure on the shoulder blade making it painfull. SO people ride them down low on the lower slope of the back. However if you look at the angle to which the plate is sitting the top is sticking way out form the diver and the bottom is pointing in pressing in on the butt. This doesn't look comfortable to me or very ergonomic.

If you don't have a Freedom Plate to compare you'll just have to use you imagination.
To add an additional level of improved tank attitude or angle, I kicked the bottom of the tank out just about 1.25" or approx. 3 degrees to set the tank in line with the straight line verticle axis of the body. Combine this with dropping it into the valley between the blades and you have a very snug, low profile, low drag, slick setup.

I had to throw out all the concepts of a standard plate, which wasn't even desinged originally to be used with singles, and completely start over.
My intention was to really think about it and create a plate that addressed all the issues I saw in the current flawed design.
The Freedom plate is the result of reverse engineering from the standpoint of where I wanted the tank to sit on my body and how to acheive that with a new support system. My original intention had nothing to do with trying to make it look retro or old school, is just so happens that it does look similar. That is the end result of deducting and distilling the design down around the shape of the body around the bones, following the contour of the back, etc. and this what it is ended up looking like. Just like putting a car into a wind tunnel and doing tests, did you ever think a car would look like it does to be more aerodynamic?

I get a chuckle with the original back packs, I guess they had it right the first time, but marketing and politics wiped it out.

 

[nimoh]

What you are saying makes sense, I currently have a regular backplate that I use for both doubles and singles but have been considering getting a plate dedicated to singles. However, I don't find my current backplate to be uncomfortable (but perhaps as you mention, I have metaphorically gotten used to not having power steering and brakes). If given the opportunity to try a freedom plate, I might be buying one, but can't see myself ordering one just to try it, so perhaps the best course of action is for you is to focus on getting dive shops to pick them up and have a demo plate on hand.

 

[TSandM]

Eric, you have a very good point. I don't have any complaints about my plates, because they were SUCH an improvement on what I had before. (And I dive with two inches of insulation, so I'd have to be the princess with the pea to have any discomfort from ANYTHING I wear. ) But maybe I'd like a FP much better. I wish I'd had a chance to try Peter's. But given that I already own three backplates AND I have no complaints about the one I have, I'd be unlikely to drop a couple hundred dollars on an experiment.

 

[RJP]

Maybe you like pulling the wing off the plate, putting the other on, and then fussing with all the reg hose changes--I don't..and I can't be the only one without time for this.

I'm not sure I "like" swapping plates from one to the other, but if I had an extra $200-$300 burning a hole in my pocket I'm not sure I'd spend it on a new plate, webbing, d-rings, buckle, knife sheath, etc (and invest the set-up/configuration time) versus simply moving my current SS plate from a set of doubles to a single tank. Unless you plan on only doing ONE dive on a single tank, you're going to have to swap the plate/wing to another tank for your second dive.

PS - I'd also need to spend another few hundred on a new wing, since none of my current wings would work with a Freedom plate.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

PS - I'd also need to spend another few hundred on a new wing, since none of my current wings would work with a Freedom plate.

A white china marker and a red hot butter knife baby!

 

[ams511]

[/SIZE]Not that this is worth you or me arguing about....

Because there is nothing to argue about, you were wrong. There rest of your post had nothing to do with the question but was a rationalization of not using double tanks. I don't dive doubles but after diving I do break apart the entire rig and soak it. So to store it disassembled and reassemble it for a doubles dive or a singles dive would cause no additional effort.

 

[RJP]

A white china marker and a red hot butter knife baby!

And I guess I'd need epoxy or something to attach the 6lb weight from my STA to the freedom plate.

:d

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Eric, you have a very good point. I don't have any complaints about my plates, because they were SUCH an improvement on what I had before. (And I dive with two inches of insulation, so I'd have to be the princess with the pea to have any discomfort from ANYTHING I wear. ) But maybe I'd like a FP much better. I wish I'd had a chance to try Peter's. But given that I already own three backplates AND I have no complaints about the one I have, I'd be unlikely to drop a couple hundred dollars on an experiment.

In a drysuit with heavy undergarments and with an air pillow in the drysuit plus the air in the wing lifting the rig away from your body ever so slightly, I doubt you could feel much difference. The angle of the plate to body would still be off but that's just my opinion.
Where you would start to notice a difference would be in a wetsuit. In 7 mil the difference is noticable and in 5 or 3 mil the difference is really noticable and in a t-shirt the difference is huge.
This is why the small plate at 3 lbs is so popular amongst warm water divers. 3 lbs. offsets the positive buoyancy of an AL80 perfectly and that's what they normally have on charter boats in the tropics.
Believe it or not, I've never gotten to use my own plate in the tropics yet, isn't that pathetic!


One of these days I should plan a trip up to the Seattle area for a demo.
I'm sure I could gather enough interest for a demo, don't you think?
Heck, we could even do a shore dive at your favorite local mud hole and you could try one.
I would even dig out my long lost long hose for the occasion!

---------- Post added November 4th, 2013 at 01:35 PM ----------

And I guess I'd need epoxy or something to attach the 6lb weight from my STA to the freedom plate.

:d

No, just thread a three pounder on each side on the waist straps and push them all the way back as far as they will go out of the way. You won't even know they're there.

 

[ams511]

Does $200 seem a lot for a single tank only plate?
Dan was advocating having two H plates all set up ready to go, one for doubles and one for singles, just for the convenience of saving some time. Hey, he's got the cash so why not?

I have an 30lb Halcyon Eclipse package with the a steel plate. The H plate is nice but if I went into backmount doubles I would purchase an inexpensive AL plate from Cave Adventurers or DGE. Alternatively I would probably buy a complete doubles package. Halcyon is great gear but it is hard to justify the cost because their is so much great gear out there now. JJ needs to realize it is not 2005 anymore.

I think $200 is expensive for a backplate, especially when the advantages are difficult to quantify. Think of Force Fins, they may be the best fins on the planet or just a marginal improvement but I am not going to take a risk for $300.

Eric I don't want to discourage you. I do not believe that backplates are of an optimal design. They were designed using materials at hand and simple metal working. If you look at high end backpacks you don't see anything resembling a a scuba backplate. The problem is that backplates are not pretty much standardized so it would be difficult to change the conventional thought.

---------- Post added November 4th, 2013 at 10:43 AM ----------

And I guess I'd need epoxy or something to attach the 6lb weight from my STA to the freedom plate.

:d

XS scuba weight pockets.