Why give primary instead of alternate regulator?

[johndiver999]

I dive a primary donate setup with a 5ft long hose (requires no tucking of excess in my belt, wraps around my torso nicely). On the local boat if I’m without a buddy, I often end up with instabuddies who’ve never seen a primary donate setup before. Always make sure to explain. My most regular buddy dives a standard alternate donate setup.

This post emphasizes an important issue with random dive partners.

When diving with insta-buddies the octopus might be placed anywhere (or sometimes just floating free). The ambiguity of location and means of attachment (even if in the designated triangle) has to make a secondary donate more complex, especially if a near panicked diver is trying to find/secure it.

On the other hand, telling your inst-bud: "if you need air - don't screw around, just take the reg from my mouth" is about as simplistic and unambiguous as possible. You might add: "It would be nice if you signal me that you need air first, but definitely use the reg from my mouth". There can be nothing simpler to understand and easy to remember.

I just think there has to be a lot of value in this aspect because it makes it exceedingly easy for the buddy to know what to do, it is more or less consistent with their instinctive behavior in an emergency and it also should help the donor to be less freaked out if/when they get mugged - since they have practiced donating primary and then securing the secondary for themselves.

 

[happy-diver]

Just get him some bungee, and tie him off, something like this, and melt him the knots
otherwise it slides like when you're trying to start pushing on those cooked shishkebab

or get some bungee, get some friends, get them to bring some beer, and have a tie off

and the thing goes on, it comes off, and the mouthpiece stays on and no strangulation

 

[KenGordon]

On the other hand, telling your inst-bud: "if you need air - don't screw around, just take the reg from my mouth" is about as simplistic and unambiguous as possible. You might add: "It would be nice if you signal me that you need air first, but definitely use the reg from my mouth". There can be nothing simpler to understand and easy to remember.

This is what I meant by bravado. The implication is that the donating diver is some hard as nails superstar who can manage without gas.

just think there has to be a lot of value in this aspect because it makes it exceedingly easy for the buddy to know what to do, it is more or less consistent with their instinctive behavior in an emergency and it also should help the donor to be less freaked out if/when they get mugged - since they have practiced donating primary and then securing the secondary for themselves.

Have they practiced having their primary stolen without notice? If so how does that work? Is it like testing for witches?

I am deeply sceptical of people that say ‘take the one from my mouth’ and sometimes I am tempted to randomly mug them mid dive to see how they do. However I would risk drowning them if I was right and I am not sure how that would go down with the judge.

Can anyone tell me of an agency that is ok with taking regs without notice?

I practice primary donate. I make sure to have stopped inhaling and to have located my secondary before I remove the regulator in my mouth. How similar is that to having one stolen where I might be inhaling or have misplaced my secondary?

 

[lowviz]

I practice primary donate. I make sure to have stopped inhaling and to have located my secondary before I remove the regulator in my mouth.

Inhale or exhale, you have a good full minute or so of oxygen in your system. You practice (IMHO) incorrectly.

How similar is that to having one stolen where I might be inhaling or have misplaced my secondary?

Practice for the real world, not Scubaboard. You are secretly 'buddy dependent', aren't you??

 

[KenGordon]

What does ‘buddy dependant’ mean?

 

[lowviz]

Decent question, deserves a decent answer.

Let's cut to the chase. How about "not being comfortable diving alone and then adding the risk of a buddy". Or (take your pick) "Anything that I forgot/didn't know will be covered by my buddy".

I can only answer for myself: Belmar, NJ. Diver friendly town.

 

[Jay]

SB essentially encourages people to switch to primary donate by putting forward primary take as a real world thing. It is ok here to recommend people switch to primary donate configurations, including those not recommended by any agency, without taking specific training. Meanwhile suggesting that going into a big hole in a cliff under the water such that there is rock above you is ok will get a thread closed.

Couldn't agree more. It was a ridiculous thread shut-down. That action certainly didn't help me learn a thing.

One aspect I did note in the shut-down ramble was how general and non-specific the points raised were, versus the specific (and apparently reasonable) points raised by some of the posters.

 

[Glenn Williams]

Ok guys, here’s my two cents on the subject. A little background on me first. I am an airframe and power plant technician also a pilot and currently work in the electrical power generation arena. Also former military.

The only reason I brought my history up is that all of my training has been about safety and redundancy.

I have spoken on this subject before and was shocked by the reactions of some of the folks here.

All that said, as far as the hose thing goes. Your alternate is usually colored yellow. In my opinion it is bright colored for a reason. It is a high visibility hose for your dive partner to be able to identify and is readily seen and recognized as an alternate hose. Me personally when I have to use buddy air will be going after the yellow hose as it is readily recognizable.

Case in point that kind of backs up my theory. My wife and I were on a dive doing the Kittywake. The dive master that was with us ran out of air, what did he do? He went for my wife’s alternate air, yes the yellow one. We did a quick huddle and finished our dive with the dive master and my wife using buddy air and had no issues.

We are recreational divers as I have been told repeated times and I get it. I just think common safety protocols should be taught and in place. What I mean for example is for one. I dive a Suunto Eon Core with tank pod. As a backup I have an SPG in a console along with another console dive computer (i300c) and compass.

It is not required but for me is a good backup if my primary fails.

Your alternate air hose is not just for your buddy, it’s for you if you have a malfunction of your primary. Most people don’t think twice about having a backup air source.

Anyway personally if I have a buddy who needs air unless it is an extreme emergency he or she is getting the yellow alternate air hose.

Ever ask yourself why that hose is longer than your primary?

I personally believe we as a community need to rehash our teaching and safety standards, and bring standardization to all dive programs like SSI, PADI etc. the “that’s the way we’ve always done it” attitude is complacent and that can lead to bad things.

Some of you will not agree and that’s ok your entitled to your opinion just as I am mine.

Not trying to start arguments or debates, just trying to say that I feel although for the most part we are pretty safe, I just think the primary alternate air hose thing really needs to be looked and gone over again.

Glenn

 

[AJ]

Not trying to start arguments or debates, just trying to say that I feel although for the most part we are pretty safe, I just think the primary alternate air hose thing really needs to be looked and gone over again.

I do understand your reasoning, however I don't think one size fits all here. For recreational diving the yellow alternate is a fine solution. For more advanced diving it is not.

The most important to me is to consider which solution works best for you and your buddy. If it's the yellow alternate, fine go for it. If you want to do caves or wrecks, think about what you really need to dive safe. Maybe a long hose will work better in those cases. In the end, diving safe is what we want to achieve. It does not really matter how we do that as long as we understand our gear and know how to use it.

 

[KenGordon]

Decent question, deserves a decent answer.

Let's cut to the chase. How about "not being comfortable diving alone and then adding the risk of a buddy". Or (take your pick) "Anything that I forgot/didn't know will be covered by my buddy".

I can only answer for myself: Belmar, NJ. Diver friendly town.

I end up taking a lot of people for their first dive, also advancing the experience of them and others. I assume that they will be no use at all to me in the case of an issue. In fact they are an encumbrance. If I am lucky I can use their gas. I think I would have a good chance of killing them if I stole a regulator from their mouth. I have no idea how I would train them to have a regulator stolen.

Amongst the things I consider on such dives is whether the student or buddy can cope with what is planned or might happen. Not giving people excessive stress is important in my opinion. Personally I find inhaling water quite stressful and to be avoided. On SB it is made out that that is not a problem because everyone is a hard man ex military or whatever and used to being harassed.