Why ‘everyone is responsible for their own risk-based decisions’ isn’t the right approach to take

[sigxbill]

there are a large number of people who feel that there is too much regulation and government control in the world, but mostly these people are wrong and have some sort of personal issue with something. I would resist any attempt to make a legal framework about what a person is or is not able to do with their leisure time, but it is fair enough that when paying for training (scuba, vehicle driving, piloting airplanes etc) that the training body is subject to basic safety requirements and that the consumer is getting proper training for their money.

The only people that are wrong are the people that want the state to control everything. Why do we need the state to verify if the consumer is getting proper anything for their money? Are not consumers capable of doing that for themselves? The only thing consumers need is access to data so they can make informed decisions. And if government is standing in the way of that data, then the only thing the consumer needs government for is to make the data consumers need available.

Yours is the same argument I hear Chinese people make in favor of their communist authoritarian leadership. They claim the people of China aren't smart enough to figure out things for themselves - so they need big government to control everything for them. Those are the same type of people who think hair dressers should need a license from big government to guarantee consumers will get a good hair cut! You don't think consumers can look at a hair dresser's work and decide for themselves if they like the work of the hair dresser or not?

Neither society nor scuba should be framed around the lowest common denominator - lazy people who take no responsibility for themselves! If they don't care about their hair cut, then let them not care about their haircut. And if they don't care about who they take scuba lessons from, then why should you care? Mind your own business and allow other to mind theirs!

 

[rjack321]

For reasons that defy understanding, scuba is viewed differently from other leisure activities. It does indeed fill a very small niche in those activities. The next time you go to a large airport, go to the bigger places where they sell magazines, and you will see magazines devoted to all kinds of activities , including some you did not know existed. You will see nothing for Scuba. Here in Colorado we have among the highest rates of divers per capita in the nation, but try to get an article about it published in the newspaper. In the local Boulder newspaper, there are regular articles on different kinds of leisure activities, including some that are staggeringly weird, but they won't publish anything on scuba diving.

The number of fatalities in scuba seems high when we talk about it here, but it is actually extremely low in relation to the number of people who participate in it. There are statistics comparing the fatality rate to bowling, believe it or not, which makes sense because in both the biggest factor is the personal health of the individual.

Despite all of that, it has an outsized reputation for danger and the assumed need for regulation. Here in Boulder, Colorado, we have a great reputation for rock climbing. I know several people who moved here for that reason. Several people die on these local cliffs each year because they were climbing them without the proper gear and training. A teenage fell off the cliffs a couple of months ago. He was climbing with no gear and with no training. People wrote it off to a youthful mistake. There is never any talk of closing off the climbing areas where it happens.

But if someone dies on a dive, holy smokes! There are all sorts of calls for regulation. An OW certified man and his uncertified son died doing a deep technical dive in Eagles Nest, one of the most challenging caves in North America, and there is still a movement being fought to close the cave off to all divers. A single diver died in a cave Morrison Springs, FL, and the sheriff dynamited it closed. Many insurance companies will invalidate life insurance policies if the insured dies while scuba diving, even a basic OW dive. Base jumping? No problem, but no scuba diving!

rock climbing and base jumping are not advertised and sold as "safe for everyone" - go figure.

 

[Roger Hobden]

Since the year 2005, you cannot get your diving cylinder filled in the Province of Quebec unless you have a special card that is provided by the Province. To get that card, you have to prove that you dive regularly or that you were recently certified. The rate of diving deaths in our Province has gone down since that law was adopted over ten years ago.

This is the way of the future.

 

[Roger Hobden]

It is amusing to see the equation "state = communism" pop up so fast in an academic discussion about safe diving.

I suspect that such an association is highly country-specific.

Every time I travel to the States, I inevitably get questions about "the socialist country I live in".

Hilarious !

 

[KevinNM]

rock climbing and base jumping are not advertised and sold as "safe for everyone" - go figure.

A couple of years ago gloc linked to a story of a base jumper who came as close to killing himself as it is possible to do and survive. The root issue was he wasn’t as good as he thought he was. He was more at the conscious competent level running routes that require unconscious competence. And in retrospect lots of people had wondered if he should be doing these level jumps, but nobody with the experience to know he didn’t have enough skill had directly confronted him.

 

[Bierstadt]

Since the year 2005, you cannot get your diving cylinder filled in the Province of Quebec unless you have a special card that is provided by the Province. To get that card, you have to prove that you dive regularly or that you were recently certified. The rate of diving deaths in our Province has gone down since that law was adopted over ten years ago.

This is the way of the future.

I expect that it has. Fewer divers should lead to fewer deaths. Keep up the trend, if that's the future your region's divers want for themselves. It has no place here. I doubt that Western Canadians would be too keen on it either. Or Ontario Canadians, like as not.

 

[rjack321]

A couple of years ago gloc linked to a story of a base jumper who came as close to killing himself as it is possible to do and survive. The root issue was he wasn’t as good as he thought he was. He was more at the conscious competent level running routes that require unconscious competence. And in retrospect lots of people had wondered if he should be doing these level jumps, but nobody with the experience to know he didn’t have enough skill had directly confronted him.

That and wingsuit flying isn't really "flying". The flight envelope is about as wide as a hair and the stall speeds are something just a tad under terminal velocity. But people watch red bull videos and other craziness and its become routine. And they are all competing to look even more extreme so the boundary between dangerous and suicidal is constantly being tested.

 

[rjack321]

I expect that it has. Fewer divers should lead to fewer deaths. Keep up the trend, if that's the future your region's divers want for themselves. It has no place here. I doubt that Western Canadians would be too keen on it either. Or Ontario Canadians, like as not.

Apparently you don't know what a "rate" is.

 

[The Chairman]

It is amusing to see the equation "state = communism" pop up so fast in an academic discussion about safe diving.

I equate state = OSHA. I have been a part of three industries that are highly regulated by OSHA and it wasn't pleasant.

 

[Aviyes]

Since the year 2005, you cannot get your diving cylinder filled in the Province of Quebec unless you have a special card that is provided by the Province. To get that card, you have to prove that you dive regularly or that you were recently certified. The rate of diving deaths in our Province has gone down since that law was adopted over ten years ago.

This is the way of the future.

Whips up 10 fake dive log entries, submits for permit and poof good for another 3 years, another example of a silly feel good bit of legislation, that in effect does nothing.