Why ‘everyone is responsible for their own risk-based decisions’ isn’t the right approach to take

[Bierstadt]

Very interesting thread with a lot to think about.

Personally, I believe that the "Far West " days of scuba diving are numbered. In 50 years from now, most countries will require a Diving License, in exactly the same way as they currently require a driver's licence if you want to drive an automobile. The theoretical, practical and attitudes diving skills will be determined by the state, and scuba agencies will have to abide by these norms and standards, which will have become international. A state-run examination agency will determine objectively if a diver can be allowed to dive or not, and will either emit a permit, or fail the student.

The importance of crucial topics like task-loading, situational awareness, check-lists, detailed dive planning, proper trim and buoyancy skills, and other accident-prevention strategies, will be introduced to the students from day #1.

I look forward very much to this state of affairs.

No.

 

[lermontov]

Very interesting thread with a lot to think about.

Personally, I believe that the "Far West " days of scuba diving are numbered. In 50 years from now, most countries will require a Diving License, in exactly the same way as they currently require a driver's licence if you want to drive an automobile. The theoretical, practical and attitudes diving skills will be determined by the state, and scuba agencies will have to abide by these norms and standards, which will have become international. A state-run examination agency will determine objectively if a diver can be allowed to dive or not, and will either emit a permit, or fail the student.

The importance of crucial topics like task-loading, situational awareness, check-lists, detailed dive planning, proper trim and buoyancy skills, and other accident-prevention strategies, will be introduced to the students from day #1.

I look forward very much to this state of affairs.

your musing in the realm of sci-fi that will never happen-and if it did the likely outcome of that would be the status quo - a government body would delegate that to a governing body (like PADI ) and would establish inspectors ( like DM) and have a licence ( like cert cards)

 

[Bierstadt]

as morbid as it may seem my mental checklist includes "somewhere i the world theres a diver kitting up today who wont return home-make sure its not me"

among other things i kit up in the same order every time- do the same checks in the same order each time - repetition - and if you do change the order for a specific reason its surprising how you get that "ive forgotten something feeling'

Agree on both counts. Once I am diving regularly in the season my mental checklist and habit suffice. At the beginning of the season, well, some written help would not go amiss.

My own morbid thought is that the sea wants to kill me. My mission and focus is to dive competently to that does not happen.

 

[rjack321]

Neither the U.S. highway or scuba hobby fatality rates are going to stay at zero. You can be ever mindful emerging technologies/techniques may offer new, practical, low-cost ways to cut into risk...but that preserving assess to the hobby and reasonable individual liberty means we're going to accept some deaths.

The mindset I'm concerned about comes from observing the influence of some regulatory agencies on business policy. It goes something like this - bad things aren't supposed to happen. When one does, 'something more' should've been done to prevent it. We must now enact a new, burdensome policy with a new requirement so in theory the bad thing won't happen again (it will). If we don't, the regulators will get us. That mindset can be a productive tool in the hands of the wise, or a red tape machine in the hands of fools (or people afraid of regulatory fools).
.

THIS is exactly why the "discover scuba" program still exists despite numerous lawsuits demonstrating that the instructor to guinea pig ratio is way too high. Insurance settles these deaths because the risk of a massive jury settlement is worse than paying a couple million for a young man or woman who died on them. And they are very lucrative for agencies - and instructors who succumb to the "business" pressure to run them with crazy instructor to student ratios. Agencies and shops are making a calculated decision - poorly calculated but they pass the liability off to insurance and the poor schmuck instructor they throw under the bus when there's another fatality.

So yea "businesses" accept "some" deaths, and they are frequently young adventurous people with many productive years ahead of them that are lost. Discover scuba participants are without exception the divers with the least capacity to understand the mistakes they make and pay the price for.

 

[chrisch]

Very interesting thread with a lot to think about.

Personally, I believe that the "Far West " days of scuba diving are numbered. In 50 years from now, most countries will require a Diving License, in exactly the same way as they currently require a driver's licence if you want to drive an automobile. The theoretical, practical and attitudes diving skills will be determined by the state, and scuba agencies will have to abide by these norms and standards, which will have become international. A state-run examination agency will determine objectively if a diver can be allowed to dive or not, and will either emit a permit, or fail the student.....

There are already a number of international agreed standards in training and recommended permissive depths resulting from certifications, the main one being CMAS. In some countries there is rudimentary legislation regarding recreational dive activities and permissive training and certification levels. The one I am most familiar with is France, having lived there and dive there regularly.

Despite France being regulated in that way (much to the annoyance of many visiting divers) it is interesting to note that the "rules" are not some form of legal framework but mainly driven by insurance. Whilst dive operators will require CMAS equivalent permissive certification anyone can make any dive they like, certified or not, medically cleared or not, from the shore. There is also an absence of any prohibition on cave diving and no requirement for certification. Permission to dive caves is reliant on the landowner for access. There is some debate about who gets the bill if there is an accident so some landowners do not grant access.

For training there is a formal legal framework. An instructor must possess a state licence to teach. This is not part of any agency certification (although there are links). This ensures the instructor is able to undertake things like lifesaving and first aid. It is generally agreed this is a bit excessive in comparison to other countries' regulations on scuba training. It certainly (IMHO) does not improve the scuba aspect of training in any way. I am unaware of any accident or fatality comparative data to make the case either way for the state licence.

My view is that the main driver throughout the world for greater "regulation" (formal or otherwise) is the insurance industry. The government is often painted as the "enemy" but it rarely is. Risk reduction is, or should be, a universally accepted goal with the reduction of claims being the primary goal of insurance companies. One could be ultra cynical and make the point that reduction of risk to zero would eliminate the need for insurance and therefore the insurance industry needs a degree of risk in order to justify it's existence.

i doubt many governments have the desire or the expertise to create a legal regulatory system for recreational scuba. More likely that the licencing of instruction (like the French system) in order to create a minimum level of competence in the training community will become more widespread. Here in the UK the government through it's safety agency mandates a level of medical compliance for instructors, however this does not apply to amateur training as these instructors are not "at work".

Requirements here: Diving - Medical requirements for diving at work if you want background reading.

Full regulation of all recreational activity would be a nightmare for policing. I really cannot see it ever becoming a reality.

 

[sigxbill]

I believe that the "Far West " days of scuba diving are numbered. In 50 years from now, most countries will require a Diving License, in exactly the same way as they currently require a driver's licence if you want to drive an automobile. The theoretical, practical and attitudes diving skills will be determined by the state, and scuba agencies will have to abide by these norms and standards, which will have become international. A state-run examination agency will determine objectively if a diver can be allowed to dive or not, and will either emit a permit, or fail the student.

The importance of crucial topics like task-loading, situational awareness, check-lists, detailed dive planning, proper trim and buoyancy skills, and other accident-prevention strategies, will be introduced to the students from day #1.

I look forward very much to this state of affairs.

What makes you think that the state will take over yet another area of our lives? You sound so certain - as though you know something the rest of us don't. The primary argument for requiring a drivers license is because you might hit / hurt someone else. Since scuba is an individual activity, the argument for requiring a license is not the same as driving a car. Should we start requiring drivers licenses to drive a bicycle? What makes you so sure the state will require licenses to dive?

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

What makes you think that the state will take over yet another area of our lives? You sound so certain - as though you know something the rest of us don't. The primary argument for requiring a drivers license is because you might hit / hurt someone else. Since scuba is an individual activity, the argument for requiring a license is not the same as driving a car. Should we start requiring drivers licenses to drive a bicycle? What makes you so sure the state will require licenses to dive?

Don’t worry, I can assure you the state will never take over scuba diving. Scuba is a micro sport and the govt. has way bigger and better things to worry about besides a side hobby that is one of the smallest sport activities there is. People here tend to overblow everything with their wild imaginations because they are immersed in it, they eat drink breathe diving and think the whole world is like that, it’s not.

 

[gcarter]

Very interesting thread with a lot to think about.

Personally, I believe that the "Far West " days of scuba diving are numbered. In 50 years from now, most countries will require a Diving License, in exactly the same way as they currently require a driver's licence if you want to drive an automobile. The theoretical, practical and attitudes diving skills will be determined by the state, and scuba agencies will have to abide by these norms and standards, which will have become international. A state-run examination agency will determine objectively if a diver can be allowed to dive or not, and will either emit a permit, or fail the student.

The importance of crucial topics like task-loading, situational awareness, check-lists, detailed dive planning, proper trim and buoyancy skills, and other accident-prevention strategies, will be introduced to the students from day #1.

I look forward very much to this state of affairs.

Significantly more people die through drowning each year than scuba diving.

Come back to us once the requirement to have a swimming license before getting in the water is in place.

This is such sheer nonsense.

 

[chrisch]

... The primary argument for requiring a drivers license is because you might hit / hurt someone else. Since scuba is an individual activity, the argument for requiring a license is not the same as driving a car. ...

Scuba is a team activity and you have a duty of care to your buddy so there is actually a case for having a bare minimum of a rescue certification. (Or solo dive)

It is easy to make the case for regulation for pretty much any activity if you want to. (I don't, but there will always be someone that does)

I think it is much easier to make the case that proper training gives people the skills and knowledge to dive safely and therefore the only thing which should be subject to any regulation is training.

I am aware there are a large number of people who feel that there is too much regulation and government control in the world, but mostly these people are wrong and have some sort of personal issue with something. I would resist any attempt to make a legal framework about what a person is or is not able to do with their leisure time, but it is fair enough that when paying for training (scuba, vehicle driving, piloting airplanes etc) that the training body is subject to basic safety requirements and that the consumer is getting proper training for their money. This is not different surely to expecting a beef jerky to be made from a cow not a horse?

 

[boulderjohn]

For reasons that defy understanding, scuba is viewed differently from other leisure activities. It does indeed fill a very small niche in those activities. The next time you go to a large airport, go to the bigger places where they sell magazines, and you will see magazines devoted to all kinds of activities , including some you did not know existed. You will see nothing for Scuba. Here in Colorado we have among the highest rates of divers per capita in the nation, but try to get an article about it published in the newspaper. In the local Boulder newspaper, there are regular articles on different kinds of leisure activities, including some that are staggeringly weird, but they won't publish anything on scuba diving.

The number of fatalities in scuba seems high when we talk about it here, but it is actually extremely low in relation to the number of people who participate in it. There are statistics comparing the fatality rate to bowling, believe it or not, which makes sense because in both the biggest factor is the personal health of the individual.

Despite all of that, it has an outsized reputation for danger and the assumed need for regulation. Here in Boulder, Colorado, we have a great reputation for rock climbing. I know several people who moved here for that reason. Several people die on these local cliffs each year because they were climbing them without the proper gear and training. A teenage fell off the cliffs a couple of months ago. He was climbing with no gear and with no training. People wrote it off to a youthful mistake. There is never any talk of closing off the climbing areas where it happens.

But if someone dies on a dive, holy smokes! There are all sorts of calls for regulation. An OW certified man and his uncertified son died doing a deep technical dive in Eagles Nest, one of the most challenging caves in North America, and there is still a movement being fought to close the cave off to all divers. A single diver died in a cave Morrison Springs, FL, and the sheriff dynamited it closed. Many insurance companies will invalidate life insurance policies if the insured dies while scuba diving, even a basic OW dive. Base jumping? No problem, but no scuba diving!