Why ‘everyone is responsible for their own risk-based decisions’ isn’t the right approach to take

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Since the year 2005, you cannot get your diving cylinder filled in the Province of Quebec unless you have a special card that is provided by the Province. To get that card, you have to prove that you dive regularly or that you were recently certified. The rate of diving deaths in our Province has gone down since that law was adopted over ten years ago.

This is the way of the future.

"prove that you dive regularly" = guilty until proven innocent mentality. This mentality is the antithesis of freedom.

What if one is highly certified and has logged hundreds of dives, but then takes five years off to raise their family? Are they no longer eligible for the Quebec air card? I guarantee the highly certified experienced diver who took a break from diving can still out-dive the recently certified diver!

The role of government is to protect innocent victims - no one needs government to save one from themselves!

And correction - this is NOT the way of the future - it is the way of the past! Socialism / communism has been tried many times throughout history - and have been a complete failure every time! Innovation and progress are the children of freedom ...

I don't think you can call reducing the number of divers in Quebec a success ...
 
Socialism / communism has been tried many times thought history - and has been a complete failure every time!
Excessive laws have nothing to do with socialism or communism.
 
Whips up 10 fake dive log entries, submits for permit and poof good for another 3 years, another example of a silly feel good bit of legislation, that in effect does nothing.
I have my FQAS, dive occasionally in Quebec, probably in the range of 70 - 75 dives. I have never seen the scuba police, never had to show my card. I know many people who dive more regularly in Quebec than I do, who either have never had the card or never renewed it. There is no extra training, it is a few extra written questions on an OW exam and a log book review, bam! signed off.

I know we see a sh!t ton of divers from Quebec all along the river in Ontario. I wonder how many of them never bothered with the FQAS and who just never dive in Quebec.
 
"prove that you dive regularly" = guilty until proven innocent mentality. This mentality is the antithesis of freedom.

What if one is highly certified and has logged hundreds of dives, but then takes five years off to raise their family? Are they no longer eligible for the Quebec air card? I guarantee the highly certified experienced diver who took a break from diving can still out-dive the recently certified diver!

The role of government is to protect innocent victims - no one needs government to save one from themselves!

And correction - this is NOT the way of the future - it is the way of the past! Socialism / communism has been tried many times throughout history - and have been a complete failure every time! Innovation and progress are the children of freedom ...

I don't think you can call reducing the number of divers in Quebec a success ...
I don't know if it applies to fills or not, I have never heard that until now. I live just across the river from Gatineau and get my fills closer to home on this side.

I am not sure that is true.
 
I know I'm not supposed to do this on the Internet, much less on scubaboard, but I just re-read the original post (after reading each reply until now), and I've got some observations on the initial statement, plus some of the responses.

Lots of people seem to have read and reacted far more to the provocative title (great marketing job!) than the body of the post.

First, nowhere in Gareth Lock's excellent post does he say that the individual should not bear responsibility, and nowhere does he advocate some of the strict regulations some people see as the inevitable result of any change to current practice. The closest he comes to suggesting any change in how the diving community treats personal responsibility is in the very mild statement:

So the next time you read about a diver making a stupid mistake, or ‘breaking the rules’, look deeper into the story and understand how it made sense to them at the time.
That sounds 100% in line with the prohibition against blaming the victim that's a rule in the Accidents & Incidents forum.

I think in the discussion that has followed, that the word "responsible" is being used in different ways. A diver who naively makes a stupid mistake may suffer the consequences (bearing the responsibility), but without knowledge and understanding of the context, they simply cannot make an informed decision or necessarily be held responsible by others. The idea that the decision "made sense at the time" probably means that the diver thought they were making a responsible choice, but they didn't know what they didn't know.

This doesn't necessarily mean that someone else (their original instructor, the dm, their buddy, etc) is responsible for their safety or decision, and it doesn't absolve the diver of the obligation to improve (training, skills, etc) in order to be able to make an informed decision -- that obligation remains their responsibility. I read gloc's post as saying that in the kind of accident analysis that we see here, holding a diver responsible for an decision that they were of incapable of making responsibly does not advance overall safety of the sport or help the individual. He doesn't offer a prescription for change, and even says:

This isn't about having a rule for each situation and getting people to follow them, because we know that won't work. Diving is a recreational activity which has a residual risk which cannot be removed.​

The conclusion that any model other than each individual being fully responsible for their decisions will lead to some kind of complex legal regulation of the practice of SCUBA diving is nonsense, and holding up OSHA as an example of the form of the regulations is simply a scare tactic.

First of all, please start with the first letter in OSHA -- the "O" for Occupational. The post that started this discussion, and most of the ones that follow, is about recreational SCUBA diving, not the practice as an occupation. Looking to other, comparable, recreational activities, there's remarkably little regulation despite their greater number of participants (and likely higher injury rates, though not fatalities). Rock climbing, sky-diving, off-road bicycle & motorcycle riding, skiing and snowboarding are free of government regulation, despite high-profile celebrity deaths and less industry self-regulation (except for sky diving) than diving. Minimal regulation -- requiring helmet use for all participants in each of those sports -- would probably be a much better benefit to society, at lower cost, than any of the regulation that people fear would be imposed on diving, yet that hasn't happened. Holding a private pilot's license has been brought up as an example of a regulated hobby, but I'd say that it's not comparable because SCUBA divers aren't responsible (see, that word again) for passengers who are incompetent of practicing the recreation themselves, and because a diver who has an accident is unlikely to crash-land on innocent bystanders.

Almost everyone writing in this thread seems to agree that better diver education would be beneficial in allowing a diver to have the knowledge and skills to take better responsibility for their own risks, and many people point out inconsistent, value-priced, watered-down training as a major problem. Perhaps more OSHA-style regulation of SCUBA diving is an answer...but regulation of the practice of the occupation of providing SCUBA instruction, with the aim of improving the quality and depth of training, not regulation of the practices of individual recreational divers.
 
I think you've articulated things quite well. I also suspect that Gareth hoped to spark a discussion, which he as definitely done.
 
among other things i kit up in the same order every time- do the same checks in the same order each time - repetition - and if you do change the order for a specific reason its surprising how you get that "ive forgotten something feeling'

Concur with all of this.
 
My perception is that all forms of scuba diving are fundamentally technical, even though the meaning of the word "technical" has acquired a much more restricted sense in the past two decades.

Recall what scuba diving was like in the period following WW II : A highly specialized activity that was only practiced by a microscopic minority of people.This activity has become more accessible to a wider range of the population, but it is still as dangerous now as it was in the early 1950s, due to the physiological constraints imposed by a column of water and to it's ever changing environment.

Last year I started diving again after having stopped for two decades. I purchased and read with great care the PADI OW manual. After doing more reading of scuba books that I found on the Internet (Lapenta, Pridmore, Lewis, etc.), and after many discussions on ScubaBoard and other scuba internet forums, it occurred to me gradually that there might possibly be a few chapters "missing" in the PADI Basic Manual, for someone to become a truly safe diver and a trustworthy buddy. PADI states that it has a strong commitment to dive safety, but I wonder if they are moving rapidly enough in the right direction ? For example, mastering buoyancy while accomplishing basic skills (mask clearing, air sharing, etc) should IMHO be part and parcel of the OW course, with strict pass or fail objectives, and not an extra add-on as it currently is.

BTW, I am looking into signing up to the GUE fundamentals course next year, have purchased and read many of their books, and studied the videos on their video website. Of course, GUE is just one school of thought out of many valuable options available towards building scuba diving proficiency. OTOH, these people make it very clear that they know what they want, and I respect them for that.

Totally agree that one of the current priorities should be the regulation of the practice of the occupation of providing SCUBA instruction.
 
Perhaps ... regulation ... is an answer... of the practice of the occupation of providing SCUBA instruction ...

I couldn't disagree more! Very few professions should require occupational licensing from the government. Regulation of anything, including scuba instructors, is usually nothing more than a power and money grab! Some people value their lives more than others, and freedom allows customers to research and buy cars based on (among other things) safety vs price. Some people choose Volvo, and others choose Fiat. Why should scuba training be any different?

If improved safety is what we really want, then the participants in the scuba industry need to stop hiding competition, so consumers can make informed choices. All the kumbaya 'all agencies are the same' nonsense needs to end. The "find a good instructor-not the agency" advice is useless for most. Perspective students see a discount price that teaches 'everything you need to know' in only three days, and the instructor is nice and has a trustworthy smile - and they think "this must by my lucky day - I found a good instructor - just like they said!" Let it be known if one or more agencies specializes in three day open water courses and selling cards backed by little to no training. Let it be known if one or more offer more comprehensive courses where cards must be earned. Competition will narrow their differences, but keep them always improving. No need to change the name of the pinnacle of government efficiency and customer service to DMVS - Department of Motor Vehicles and Scuba... cheers
 
Very few professions should require occupational licensing from the government.

?????

Hmm, your ideals seem to be much closer to those of Peter Kropotkin then you may believe ...

A person who lived a very interesting life, BTW.
 

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